Magnus v The Ponziani

The main reason 3...d5 is considered the very best move for black is because it puts two pawns in the center and opens up the queen's bishop while deterring white from playing his intended 4.d4 as shown below:



and if

Only time I played Ponzi was in a club championship game some 30 years ago. pairings were posted a week in advance so I assumed my opponent would be ready for my usual Two Knights or Evans (which I knew very well). Therefore, I decided to spring this on him - worked out well after he made an error in the opening.


[Event "Game"] [Site "club championship"] [Date "1981"] [EndDate "1981"] [Round "?"] [White "kbear1k"] [Black "????"] [WhiteRating "2250"] [BlackRating "2100"] [WhiteElo "????"] [BlackElo "????"] [Result "1-0"] [GameId "????"] 1. e4 e5 2. Ng1f3 Nb8c6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 Qd6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. exd5 Qxd5 7. 0-0 g6 8. Re1 Bg7 9. d4 0-0-0 10. c4 Qd6 11. d5 Nb8 12. Bxd7+ Rxd7 13. Qxa7 f5 14. Nc3 e4 15. Nb5 Qb4 16. Qa8 Rd8 17. Bf4 exf3 18. Bxc7 0-1

Try again

Originally posted by RJHinds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOZLHeKWhTQ

LOL

Originally posted by RJHinds
The main reason 3...d5 is considered the very best move for black is because it puts two pawns in the center and opens up the queen's bishop while deterring white from playing his intended 4.d4 as shown below:

[pgn]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. d4 dxe4 5. Nxe5 Nxe5 6. dxe5 Qxd1+ 7. Kxd1 {white's king has been prevented from castling and is in the cen ...[text shortened]... 3 Nf6 7. d3 Bf5 8. Be2 O-O-O {Black is better becuase of white's backward queen pawn}
[/pgn]

Any knowledgeable player will play 4.Qa4 (instead of patzer moves like 4.exd5 and 4.d4). Black should know what to do then.

Originally posted by Pacifique
Any knowledgeable player will play 4.Qa4 (instead of patzer moves like 4.exd5 and 4.d4). Black should know what to do then.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. Bb5 Ne7 6. exd5 Qxd5

1. Showalter vs Steinitz 0-1 34 1898 Vienna C44 King's Pawn Game
2. Reggio vs W Napier 0-1 45 1902 Monte Carlo C44 King's Pawn Game
3. Von Popiel vs Pillsbury 0-1 50 1902 13th DSB Kongress (Hanover) C44 King's Pawn Game
4. O Roething vs Marshall 0-1 38 1904 quad C44 King's Pawn Game
5. E Heilmann vs F Englund 0-1 27 1905 Barmen Main A, GER C44 King's Pawn Game
6. Reggio vs Swiderski 0-1 29 1905 Scheveningen C44 King's Pawn Game
7. E Heilmann vs Przepiorka 0-1 46 1907 Berlin Jubilee C44 King's Pawn Game
8. S Mlotkowski vs E G Sergeant 0-1 62 1909 11th Anglo-American Cable Match C44 King's Pawn Game
9. O Roething vs Capablanca 0-1 29 1910 New York State C44 King's Pawn Game
10. L Pospisil vs V Zrzavy 0-1 33 1984 CSR-ch21 sf-C corr C44 King's Pawn Game
11. G Candea vs N Demeny 0-1 36 1994 ROM-chT C44 King's Pawn Game
12. E Paehtz vs A Stefanova 0-1 74 2008 Reykjavik Open C44 King's Pawn Game

REFINE SEARCH: White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2)

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1370979

Nice win by Capablanca

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. Bb5 Ne7 6. exd5 Qxd5

1. Showalter vs Steinitz 0-1 34 1898 Vienna C44 King's Pawn Game
2. Reggio vs W Napier 0-1 45 1902 Monte Carlo C44 King's Pawn Game
3. Von Popiel vs Pillsbury 0-1 50 1902 13th DSB Kongress (Hanover) C44 King's Pawn Game
4. O Roething vs Marshall 0-1 38 1904 quad C44 King's Pawn awn Game

REFINE SEARCH: White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2)

I know that 4...f6 seems to be the best option for Black. Which does not mean that White can`t have playable position (after 5.Bb5 or 5.d3).

Some examples:

Originally posted by Pacifique
Any knowledgeable player will play 4.Qa4 (instead of patzer moves like 4.exd5 and 4.d4). Black should know what to do then.

Black has several choices to defend against 4.Qa4. There is 4.Qd6 which was played in the game shown by kbear1k. This is my least favorite way of defense. Then there is the most popular 4.f6 played by many masters in the past. But even the developing move 4.Nf6 is playable and can give Black a good game. However, now that I have studied this defense more, I like to set a trap with 4.Bd7, since I have been caught in so many opening traps myself. This last line may not be as good as the others if White plays correctly, but I still think it is playable even then.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Black has several choices to defend against 4.Qa4. There is 4.Qd6 which was played in the game shown by kbear1k. This is my least favorite way of defense. Then there is the most popular 4.f6 played by many masters in the past. But even the developing move 4.Nf6 is playable and can give Black a good game. However, now that I have studied this defense mor ...[text shortened]... t be as good as the others if White plays correctly, but I still think it is playable even then.

Are you able to compare these positions with positions arising after 3...Nf6, to explain why 3...Nf6 is worse than 3...d5 ?

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1370979

Nice win by Capablanca

[pgn]1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 d5 4.Qa4 f6 5.Bb5 Nge7 6.exd5 Qxd5 7.d4
e4 8.Bc4 Qh5 9.Nfd2 Bd7 10.Nxe4 Nxd4 11.Qd1 Qxd1+ 12.Kxd1 Bg4+
13.Kd2 Ndc6 14.f3 O-O-O+ 15.Ke2 Bf5 16.Bd3 Ne5 17.Bc2 Bd7
18.a4 N7g6 19.Be3 f5 20.Ned2 Re8 21.Kf2 c5 22.g3 h5 23.Na3 Be7
24.Rae1 Rhf8 25.Kg2 Bc6 26.Rhf1 h4 27.Bg1 hxg3 28.hxg3 f4
29.Nac4 Rd8 0-1[/pgn]

Capablanca won through psychology on that game.

Originally posted by Pacifique
Are you able to compare these positions with positions arising after 3...Nf6, to explain why 3...Nf6 is worse than 3...d5 ?

I can't explain it myself, however I referenced a Youtube video in which 3...Nf6 is said to be not as good as the main line 3...d5. Look at the video and perhaps you will be able to understand why. There is another online source that gives 3...d5! the exclamation mark, which means it is the very best move. So I take their word for it, since I have no evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I can't explain it myself, however I referenced a Youtube video in which 3...Nf6 is said to be not as good as the main line 3...d5. Look at the video and perhaps you will be able to understand why. There is another online source that gives 3...d5! the exclamation mark, which means it is the very best move. So I take their word for it, since I have no evidence to the contrary.

So you admit in lack of your own knowledge in chess?

What is more convincing - online sources created by unknown players (USCF rating 2130) or GMs (ELO - 2698 & 2861), employing their ideas in practice, reaching equal position as Black?

Originally posted by Pacifique
So you admit in lack of your own knowledge in chess?

What is more convincing - online sources created by unknown players (USCF rating 2130) or GMs (ELO - 2698 & 2861), employing their ideas in practice, reaching equal position as Black?

Yes, I admit that I do not have a master or grandmaster's knowledge of chess. That is why I take their word on chess ideas that I can not refute.

The grandmasters, who employing their ideas in practice, do not always explain them either. As greenpawn34 has said, sometimes a GM may not play the very best move everytime for various reasons, like the psychology of getting his opponent out of his comfort zone, as one example.

I do not think the GM's dispute that 3...d5 is the best theoretical move in that position. However, some may think another move that is almost as good may provide them better opportunities against a particular opponent.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, I admit that I do not have a master or grandmaster's knowledge of chess. That is why I take their word on chess ideas that I can not refute.

The grandmasters, who employing their ideas in practice, do not always explain them either. As greenpawn34 has said, sometimes a GM may not play the very best move everytime for various reasons, like the psych ve that is almost as good may provide them better opportunities against a particular opponent.

I do not think the GM's dispute that 3...d5 is the best theoretical move in that position.

Just because 2130 rated USCF player said so? 😀 I believe you do not think at all.