Magnus v The Ponziani

greenpawn34 View Profile

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22 Jan '13 20:31

greenpawn34
e4
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22 Jan '13 20:312 edits
Not often you see this opening on the top flight boards.

Y. Hou - M.Carlsen, Tata Steel 2013

Invert Board PGN Comments

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Nd5 6. Bc4 Nb6 7. Bb3 d5 8. cxd4 Bg4 9. Be3 f6 10. O-O Qd7 11. h3 Bh5 12. e6 {If Black takes this cheeky pawn then 13.Ng5 or 13.Re1 looks like the reply.} 12... Qd6 13. Nc3 O-O-O 14. a4 a5 15. Nb5 Qxe6 {Now with Black King castled and the b3 Bishop not protected by the a-pawn Black takes the pawn.} 16. Bf4 Rd7 17. Re1 Qf7 18. Rc1 Bb4 19. Re3 g5 20. Bh2 Nc4 {Closing that open c-file, the c7 square was getting hot.} 21. Bxc4 dxc4 22. Qc2 Bxf3 23. Rxf3 Nxd4 24. Nxd4 Rxd4 25. Be5 Rd2 26. Qf5+ Qd7 27. Qxf6 Re8 28. Bg3 Rd4 29. Rf1 g4 30. hxg4 Rxg4 31. Rf4 h5 32. Rxg4 hxg4 33. Rc1 c3 {Rather than tie down a piece defending the pawn. Magnus sacs it isolating the a-pawn and closes that dangerous looking c-file.} 34. bxc3 Bc5 35. Qg5 b6 36. c4 Re4 37. Qg6 Re2 38. Kf1 Qd2 39. Qxg4+ Kb8 40. Qxe2 Qxc1+ 41. Qe1 Qxc4+ 42. Qe2 Qxa4 {Thiis is Witchcraft.} 43. Be5 Bd4 44. Bxd4 Qxd4 45. g4 Qd5 46. Qe8+ Kb7 47. Qa4 b5 48. Qxa5 Qd1+ 49. Qe1 Qxg4 50. Qe5 Qc4+ 51. Kg2 Qc6+ 52. Kf1 b4 53. f4 b3 54. f5 Ka6 55. Qa1+ Kb6 56. Qh8 Qc1+ 57. Kg2 Qc2+ 58. Kh1 b2 59. Qb8+ Ka5 60. Qa7+ Kb4 61. Qb7+ Ka3 62. Qf3+ Qb3 63. Qa8+ Qa4 64. Qf3+ Ka2 65. Qd5+ Ka1 66. Qe5 c5 {Black is playing next Qd4. 0-1.}
kingshill
Mr Ring Rusty
Wales
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22 Jan '13 23:13
Didn't Magnus play the Ponz in a earlier round..?

(Haven't been following that closely other than Anands brilliant win and Magnus' grind in the last round)
greenpawn34
e4
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23 Jan '13 13:08
Just seen youtube analysis by Carlsen on the above game.

YouTube

He says he was surprised to see 3.c3 and later admits that his 47...b5 here.

Was a blunder. 47...b5 48. Qxa5 Qd1+ 49. Qe1 The move he missed.
He thought he was getting the g-pawn with a check.

Hi Kingshill.

You are correct. Round 4. Carlsen played it as White and won.

M.Carlsen - P.Harikrishna, Tata Steel 2013

EVENT 75th Tata Steel GpA
SITE Wijk aan Zee NED
DATE 2013.01.15
ROUND 4.3
WHITE Carlsen, Magnus
BLACK Harikrishna, Pentala
RESULT 1-0
ECO C44
EVENTDATE 2013.01.12
Invert Board PGN Headers

[Event "75th Tata Steel GpA"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee NED"]
[Date "2013.01.15"]
[Round "4.3"]
[White "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Black "Harikrishna, Pentala"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C44"]
[EventDate "2013.01.12"]
[PlyCount "98"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 d5 5. Bb5 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Bd7 8. Bxc6 bxc6 9. O-O Be7 10. Be3 O-O 11. Nd2 Nc5 12. b4 Nb7 13. f4 a5 14. f5 axb4 15. cxb4 Bxb4 16. Qg4 Bc3 17. Rac1 Bxd4 18. Bxd4 Rxa2 19. e6 f6 20. Nb3 Be8 21. Nc5 Nd6 22. Qf3 Qe7 23. Rf2 Ra5 24. Nb3 Rb5 25. Bc5 Bh5 26. Qc3 Qe8 27. Qe3 Qa8 28. Nd4 Rxc5 29. Rxc5 Ne4 30. Nxc6 Nxf2 31. Kxf2 Qa2+ 32. Kg3 Re8 33. h3 Qa6 34. Qc3 Be2 35. Rxd5 Bb5 36. Nb4 Qb7 37. Qc5 Ba4 38. Rd7 Qe4 39. Rxc7 h5 40. Kh2 Kh7 41. Qf2 Rg8 42. Na6 Be8 43. Rc5 Qd3 44. Nb4 Qd6+ 45. Kh1 Qd1+ 46. Qg1 Qd6 47. Nd5 Rf8 48. Qd4 Kh8 49. Rc8 Bc6
Burnsider
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23 Jan '13 13:21
Cue a hike in sales for any opening novella on the Ponziani!
greenpawn34
e4
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23 Jan '13 13:251 edit
100% correct Burnsider.

Cannot wait for him to trot out a Latvian Gambit. Then for once I may
have better idea what is going on.
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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23 Jan '13 17:59
Originally posted by greenpawn34
Just seen youtube analysis by Carlsen on the above game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27cvLgwiWQ

He says he was surprised to see 3.c3 and later admits that his 47...b5 here.

[fen]8/1kp5/1p6/p2q4/Q5P1/8/5P2/5K2 b - - 0 47[/fen]
Was a blunder. 47...b5 48. Qxa5 Qd1+ 49. Qe1 The move he missed.
He thought he was getting the g-pawn with a check. ...[text shortened]... Nb4 Qd6+ 45. Kh1 Qd1+ 46. Qg1 Qd6 47. Nd5 Rf8 48. Qd4 Kh8 49. Rc8 Bc6[/pgn]
Black played the inferior defensive opening line in both of these games. The correct line for black is as follows:

Invert Board PGN Comments

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 {not 3...Nf6}
ChessPraxis
Cowboy From Hell
American West
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23 Jan '13 18:042 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Black played the inferior defensive opening line in both of these games. The correct line for black is as follows:

[pgn]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 {not 3...Nf6}
[/pgn]
http://tinyurl.com/SorryRJH
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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23 Jan '13 18:48
The following is the first game I played against the Ponziani opening on RHP. This was the 16th game I finished and I was still playing without aids of opening books or the RHP analyze board. However, I managed to win against a higher rated opponent at the time. At the end of this game my rating went up to 1582 and his went down to 1645. I played this game like I was playing against the Guioco Piano, which I had studied before I stopped playing chess in 1982.

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2011.01.31"]
[EndDate "2011.02.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Genghis Khan1162"]
[Black "RJHinds"]
[WhiteRating "1645"]
[BlackRating "1582"]
[WhiteElo "1645"]
[BlackElo "1582"]
[Result "0-1"]
[GameId "8145928"]

Invert Board PGN Comments

1. e4 e5 2. Ng1f3 Nb8c6 3. c3 Bf8c5 {This is not considered good by opening books unless you are playing against the Guioco Piano} 4. d4 exd4 5. cxd4 Bc5b4 6. Bc1d2 Qd8e7 7. Bf1d3 Ng8f6 8. O-O Bb4xd2 9. Nb1xd2 O-O 10. Rf1e1 d6 11. Nd2b3 h6 12. h3 Bc8d7 13. Qd1d2 Qe7d8 14. Ra1c1 Ra8c8 15. d5 Nc6e5 16. Nf3d4 Ne5xd3 17. Qd2xd3 Rf8e8 18. Nb3d2 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Nd2f3 d5 21. e5 Nf6e4 22. Qd3a6 Qd8b6 23. Qa6a3 c5 24. Nd4b3 c4 25. Nb3d4 a5 26. Rc1c2 Qb6b4 27. Qa3e3 Rc8c5 28. a3 Qb4b6 29. Rc2e2 Re8c8 30. Nf3d2 Ne4xd2 31. Qe3xd2 c3 32. bxc3 Rc5xc3 33. Re2e3 Rc3c4 34. Nd4f3 Qb6c5 35. Re1d1 Bd7a4 36. Rd1e1 Ba4d7 37. Re3d3 Bd7e6 38. Nf3d4 a4 39. Kg1h2 Rc4c3 40. Re1e3 Rc3xd3 41. Re3xd3 Qc5c1 42. Qd2xc1 Rc8xc1 43. Nd4b5 Rc1b1 44. Nb5c7 Rb1b3 45. Rd3d4 Rb3xa3 46. Nc7xd5 Ra3a1 47. Nd5b6 a3 48. Nb6d5 a2 49. Nd5b4 Ra1h1 0-1
paulbuchmanfromfics
Joined
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23 Jan '13 19:00
Originally posted by RJHinds
The following is the first game I played against the Ponziani opening on RHP. This was the 16th game I finished and I was still playing without aids of opening books or the RHP analyze board. However, I managed to win against a higher rated opponent at the time. At the end of this game my rating went up to 1582 and his went down to 1645. I played this ga ...[text shortened]... 46. Nc7xd5 Ra3a1 47. Nd5b6 a3 48. Nb6d5 a2 49. Nd5b4 Ra1h1 0-1
[/pgn]
Who knew the idea of c3 was to play d4? !!! 😲
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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23 Jan '13 19:21
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
Who knew the idea of c3 was to play d4? !!! 😲
Yes, I believed that was coming. Did you see how I handled it? After all I am only a 1500 player OTB and I was playing that game like an OTB game without the clock and the requirement to record my moves. I am not a Magnus Carlsen and, thank God, neither was my opponent. 😏
paulbuchmanfromfics
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Moves
48477
23 Jan '13 21:00
Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, I believed that was coming. Did you see how I handled it? After all I am only a 1500 player OTB and I was playing that game like an OTB game without the clock and the requirement to record my moves. I am not a Magnus Carlsen and, thank God, neither was my opponent. 😏
OK ... I will give the devil his due. It was a nice patient maneuvering game. You didn't overract and played some nice positional chess. As long as black doesn't go overboard in the open games and plays good sound moves, he should be able to hold equailty and eventually get in his own shots (if the opportunity presents itself). That's also nice finish. Good Game
Pacifique
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637
23 Jan '13 21:481 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
Black played the inferior defensive opening line in both of these games. The correct line for black is as follows:

[pgn]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 {not 3...Nf6}
[/pgn]
Are you able to explain why 3...d5 is better than 3...Nf6? Evaluation of your engine or did you read Wikipedia?
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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13644
23 Jan '13 23:19
Originally posted by Pacifique
Are you able to explain why 3...d5 is better than 3...Nf6? Evaluation of your engine or did you read Wikipedia?
YouTube
paulbuchmanfromfics
Joined
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Moves
48477
23 Jan '13 23:54

Black has a lot of choices because c3 doesn't put immediate pressure on black.

RJ's 3. ... Bc5 may be one of the worst, because it plays right into white's hands (losing time in the process).

I have tried many moves against the Ponziani over the years.

3. ... d5

This is a theoritical line. I believe that it is the recommendation in the Emms book Play The Open Games As Black. Black must learn to meet exd5, Bb5, and Qa4. Black doesn't have any real problems, but I personally didn't like the positions it led to as much.

3. ... Nf6

This is the other main recommendation (including by Marin in his book on 1. ...e5).
3. ... Nf6 can lead to closed positional maneuvering, but there are chances for black. Marin introduced an interesting variation where black gets an open h file (and all sorts of Rh4 ideas pop up for black.)

I think it goes like this:

Invert Board PGN
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Nxg6 hxg6

I have tried more rare variations against the Ponziani too.

3. ... f5

When I want the initiative or an attempt at a quick win, I go for f5. It's like a Latvian Gambit where c3 doesn't really help white. White may get an edge, theoretically, but it's a good fighting move.

3. ...d6

This is good for a good closed battle as well. 4.Bb5 can go into a Ruy Lopez Steinitz (but with a pawn on c3). With d6, black just plays a solid move and leaves most of theory. With patient play, black will get chances to outplay white in the late middlegame or endgame. 4.d4 Bd7 is usually how I follow up.

Bd7 just keeps the queens on, so that black can have more chances later.

I imagine 3. ... Qe7

would also be playable. Black follows up with g6. The good thing is that white no longer has Nc3 and Nd5.

The Ponziani just lets up the pressure to early, to lead to a forced advantage in my opinion.
paulbuchmanfromfics
Joined
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Moves
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24 Jan '13 00:01
Originally posted by greenpawn34
Just seen youtube analysis by Carlsen on the above game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27cvLgwiWQ

He says he was surprised to see 3.c3 and later admits that his 47...b5 here.

[fen]8/1kp5/1p6/p2q4/Q5P1/8/5P2/5K2 b - - 0 47[/fen]
Was a blunder. 47...b5 48. Qxa5 Qd1+ 49. Qe1 The move he missed.
He thought he was getting the g-pawn with a check. ...[text shortened]... Nb4 Qd6+ 45. Kh1 Qd1+ 46. Qg1 Qd6 47. Nd5 Rf8 48. Qd4 Kh8 49. Rc8 Bc6[/pgn]
Interesting ... This is really a Two Knights Modern Variation with an extra move for white.

Invert Board PGN
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 d5 6. Bb5 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Bd7
8. Bxc6 bxc6

Two Knights after move 8

Carlsen after move 8

He gained c3 by not losing time with Bc4-Bb5. Technically, its a Ponziani, but it really isn't.

EVENT	75th Tata Steel GpA
SITE	Wijk aan Zee NED
DATE	2013.01.15
ROUND	4.3
WHITE	Carlsen, Magnus
BLACK	Harikrishna, Pentala
RESULT	1-0
ECO	C44
EVENTDATE	2013.01.12

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Magnus v The Ponziani