Maximum possible chess moves ?

Originally posted by caffiend
From Fred Reinfeld's introduction to "My System" by Aron Nimzovich:

"Again I quote Dr. Davidson:
'Kasner and Newman estimate that the total of possible moves in a game of chess is 10 to the power (10 to the 50th). This is a figure for which we have no name. It is composed first by taking a one with fifty zeroes after it, thus: 100,000,000,000,000,000,0 ...[text shortened]... ucky! Now I'm not inclined to check the math....but that is a serious number of zeroes.

so... since we can't define infinity ( or have no exact value for it) it could be the number you just mentioned plus infinity. There is no answer to this question? It should be simple... finite amount of pieces, finite amount of places to move those pieces, rules that ( or patterns) the pieces must adhere too for movement... yet no answer to the possible amount of moves in a single game/

a concept must be cleared up before a serious discussion can take place. this is not an original posting of an idea, others said it before: remove the term infinity (infinite) from the discussion. If it's infinite (undeterminable, really), then relative degrees, any discussion of relative degrees of infinity, don't exist or make sense. However, the "maximum possible number of moves in a chess game" does become mildly interesting if you make one extra non-existent rule (again, stated before): a draw MUST be claimed or declared once it is legal to do so. Thus, the best way to ask this question (i think): how many maximum possible chess moves are there before a forced potential draw or win must occur?

all of the draws need to be considered: three move repititions, stalemates, not enough material, 50 moves without a capture or a pawn advance (we'll exclude the possibility of someone being too stupid to recognize a mate in one with only two forced possible moves on a board with three pieces -please forget about proving that this cannot happen, it's only a metaphor - etc, since this would violate the orginal premise of seeking the maximum number of moves, similar to a game between my puppy and my kitten)

the process for estimating this real finite number has already been shown to be the exact equal number of ridiculous threads posted in the RHP forums - an amazing coincidence!

Originally posted by coquette
a concept must be cleared up before a serious discussion can take place. this is not an original posting of an idea, others said it before: remove the term infinity (infinite) from the discussion. If it's infinite (undeterminable, really), then relative degrees, any discussion of relative degrees of infinity, don't exist or make sense. However, the "maximum ...[text shortened]... xact equal number of ridiculous threads posted in the RHP forums - an amazing coincidence!

anyway.... the question remains , once again- new thread old thread ancient thread... who cares/ , UNANSWERED. thanks for participating . b.

15000 is the maximum moves considering all pieces but kings are taken and eveyr pawn has been moved as much as possible

how'd you come up with that? besides who cares there are only a handful of ways the game should be played!

Originally posted by knightistwoqueens
15000 is the maximum moves considering all pieces but kings are taken and eveyr pawn has been moved as much as possible

THANKS FOR POSTING BUT... HOW DID YOU COME TO THAT FIGURE?

Originally posted by big bern
THANKS FOR POSTING BUT... HOW DID YOU COME TO THAT FIGURE?

Call me a jack A$$, if you want, I have been and will again, be called worst. But, this reminds of the old true or false question....How long is a piece of string?

have a great day.

Originally posted by alurap
Call me a jack A$$, if you want, I have been and will again, be called worst. But, this reminds of the old true or false question....How long is a piece of string?

have a great day.

your not a jack$$.. actually, the answer to the old age question you referred to in your post is probably the same answer they will eventually settle on with respect to this thread.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Chess.html

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/chess1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
There are 20 possible 1st moves and 20 possible replies so that is 40 possible moves for move 1.

After that it could be somewhat more or less than 20 depending on the position but lets keep it simple and say the average number of moves is 20. Therefore in a typical game of 40 moves there are 40 X 40 options or only 1600 possible moves. If a game were ...[text shortened]... sumes only 20 possible moves each move but in many positions the possibilities will be far more.

I think you are missing a Zero in that large number, why dont you calculate again so you dont be giving wrong informations 😲🙄

Also interesting about this topic

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3997

There are a lot of people missing the point in this thread.
The question is how many possible positions can there be in a game of chess. This is a finite number, as pointed out the 50 move rule will put a finite limit on the longest possible games.
However the number is (as pointed out by the wise amongst us, and through the links) more than there are atoms in the known universe. A trillion trillion trillion for every grain of sand on every beach on earth, and so many possible positions that IBM deep blue would take (if it started now) over a trillion trillion trillion years to calculate them all.
So no, its not 15,000 as someone said. It is over 3 billion to calculate everything that can happen in the next 3 moves (for an average middlegame position). The number is almost incomprehensible. Even for my exceptional mind 🙂

Originally posted by Policestate
Even for my exceptional mind 🙂[/b]

So the rest of us can only say like Paris Hilton would:

So that is like, wow incredible!!

Originally posted by Policestate
There are a lot of people missing the point in this thread.
The question is how many possible positions can there be in a game of chess. This is a finite number, as pointed out the 50 move rule will put a finite limit on the longest possible games.
However the number is (as pointed out by the wise amongst us, and through the links) more than there are ...[text shortened]... age middlegame position). The number is almost incomprehensible. Even for my exceptional mind 🙂

i agree. it has to be close to an enormous number since , with all the smart minds on this site, we have no answer yet.

Originally posted by big bern
i agree. it has to be close to an enormous number since , with all the smart minds on this site, we have no answer yet.

This is simple mathematics. The result is almost indescribably complex, but the maths is simple.
As Dragon Fire stated, there are 20 possible first moves for white - each pawn one or two, and the two knights to one of two squares. In response to each of these 20 moves, black has 20 responses. So for the first move, a computer like Deep Blue must calculate (taking out the fact the openings are programmed in, etc etc) 20x20 possible positions for the first move of the game = 400 positions.
For move number 2 it gets far more complex. For each of these 400 positions, there are 'x' number of responses for white. Deep Blue must calculate them all to decide on the best continutation. As I said in my previous post, this means that to calculate to perfection all possibilities for the next 3 moves in a standard middlegame position, it needs to assess 3 billion positions (on average). With a process speed of around 200 million positions per second, it can do this in 15 seconds. But the number of positions increase exponentially with each move, so to look 4 moves ahead it needs to look at about a trillion positions. This would take it 5000 seconds, or about 2 hours.
The guy who said 10000 positions, or 1500 or any other such paltry number really needs to learn some maths.
Like a said it would take Deep Blue longer than the age of the universe to calculate everything that could happen in 25 moves, because it has to calculate every possibility. Kasparov could beat it as he has intuition, memory, spatial awareness, pattern recognition, cognitive logic, and other brain functions that the computer doesnt. But in the end processor speed alone means computers will soon dominate chess, and one day, theoretically, solve it.