1. Joined
    28 Sep '06
    Moves
    6883
    28 Jul '07 06:09
    Originally posted by Asthereal
    Watch out for three times the same position though, there's another draw 😉
    nah, just use rook pawns first. then you have another piece to shuttle around to avoid 3 fold draws.
  2. washington
    Joined
    18 Dec '05
    Moves
    47023
    28 Jul '07 06:49
    they say chess has more move possibilities than there are atoms in the univers. i say thats bull they don't even know how big the universe is! but they are just describing how big it really is. in more interesting news the center of an atom and the distance it is from the electrons is like a dime in the middle of a football field. bunch of empty space!
  3. Joined
    30 Oct '05
    Moves
    3072
    28 Jul '07 09:22
    Originally posted by kmac27
    they say chess has more move possibilities than there are atoms in the univers. i say thats bull they don't even know how big the universe is! but they are just describing how big it really is. in more interesting news the center of an atom and the distance it is from the electrons is like a dime in the middle of a football field. bunch of empty space!
    observable universe

    We pretty well know how large the observable universe is. As for the size of that which we cannot see, for all we know it very well could be infinitely large, or a tiny portion of a spherical, saddle shaped, or donut shaped universe. Also if the notion of a dime in the middle of a football field succeeds in blowing your mind, that dime (i.e. the nucleus) is only strong and weak force interaction between various flavors of quarks, elementary particles that have never shown themselves to have any size whatsoever.

    It's so damn unfair that the subject with the coolest and most nonintuitive concepts and ideas probably has the most boring introductory and intermediate level courses in all of the sciences.
  4. Joined
    22 Sep '06
    Moves
    1707
    28 Jul '07 10:08
    The number of moves in a chess game can't be infinite because eventually every single possible position that can occur will be played twice and so eventually a third repetition will occur. We can just say it is probably more than 500 billion moves.
  5. Standard memberAttilaTheHorn
    Erro Ergo Sum
    In the Green Room
    Joined
    09 Jul '07
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    520313
    28 Jul '07 12:34
    Let's just remember that a 3-fold repetition as well as the 50-move rule is not an automatic draw. It must be claimed. If it is not claimed, the game continues. When playing computers, it is automatic, but it is not in OTB play against a real opponent.
    So it is possible to play forever with an infinite number of moves just by moving the knights alone. Of course, I'd claim the draw at the appropriate moment and get out of there. After all, the pubs don't stay open all night, you know!
  6. Standard memberDutch Defense
    Stealer of Souls
    Account suspended
    Joined
    16 Feb '07
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    119052
    28 Jul '07 12:341 edit
    Originally posted by big bern
    I HAVE HEARD THAT IT IS ALMOST INFINITE... ANYONE CARE TO EXPAND(ON INFINITE)
    INFINITY TO THE INFINITE POWER INFINITLY!!!
  7. THORNINYOURSIDE
    Joined
    04 Sep '04
    Moves
    245624
    28 Jul '07 12:45
    Does this link provide the answer?

    http://www.chess-poster.com/english/notes_and_facts/did_you_know.htm

    Fact 1 and fact 38
  8. Joined
    19 Oct '05
    Moves
    19911
    28 Jul '07 15:27
    Originally posted by adramforall
    Does this link provide the answer?

    http://www.chess-poster.com/english/notes_and_facts/did_you_know.htm

    Fact 1 and fact 38
    i AM JUST THROWING THIS OUT THERE BUT ARE THERE CHESS BASE COMPUTER GAMES THAT YOU CAN PUT THIS QUESTION TO AND SEE IF THEY SPIT OUT AN EXPONENT OR TWO ADD INTO THE RING. cOMPUTERS MUST SOMEHOW AT ONE POINT HAVE TRIED TO CALCULATE POSSIBLE AMOUNT OF MOVES IN A SINGLE GAME.
  9. USA
    Joined
    22 Dec '05
    Moves
    13780
    28 Jul '07 16:40
    Here's an interesting dilemma.

    If you count the number of numbers above zero, you have an infinite amount of numbers. So you could say the value of infinite is the number of numbers above zero. But if you now do the same thing with below zero, there is also an infinte amount of numbers. That means infinite has just doubled?
  10. Standard memberDualSpace
    DualSpace
    Toronto
    Joined
    22 Oct '04
    Moves
    7885
    28 Jul '07 22:15
    Don't muck around. Read Cantor. If you can create a 1:1 correspondence, the infinities are the same. The real numbers are the power set of the integers and are not into 1:1 with the integers...."chew on that, digest that" kinda kewl.

    I agree with the posters about eventually hitting the three move repetition...eventually...and about actually claiming it...if you don't claim it it's infinite. If it's an automatic claim, the answer is finite for sure, just a massive combinatorial explosion problem that me and my beer don't want to get into 😛
  11. Standard memberDragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    searching for truth
    Joined
    06 Jun '06
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    30390
    28 Jul '07 22:271 edit
    Originally posted by big bern
    I HAVE HEARD THAT IT IS ALMOST INFINITE... ANYONE CARE TO EXPAND(ON INFINITE)
    There are 20 possible 1st moves and 20 possible replies so that is 40 possible moves for move 1.

    After that it could be somewhat more or less than 20 depending on the position but lets keep it simple and say the average number of moves is 20. Therefore in a typical game of 40 moves there are 40 X 40 options or only 1600 possible moves. If a game were to go on for 200 moves (by which time the 50 move rule would almost certainly apply) there are only 40 X 200 or 8000 possible moves.

    Now if you are talking about the number of different combinations of moves that is a different matter. Thereare 20X20 or 400 possible combinations of the 1st moves as white and black. Another 20 moves from each side gives 160000 possible combinations of 2 moves each. By the time we reach move 4 it is 25600000000, and by move 64 it is in the region of 40000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. Not quite infinite but a rather large number.

    Of course this assumes only 20 possible moves each move but in many positions the possibilities will be far more.
  12. Joined
    03 Feb '07
    Moves
    193201
    28 Jul '07 22:53
    But I bet there is a finite max number of moves if you exclude repetition of position.
  13. Joined
    02 Jun '05
    Moves
    36583
    29 Jul '07 01:07
    Originally posted by malinga
    its huge though. if both players wanted to play the longest legal chess game they could usde their first 49 moves moving a knight in and out then push a pawn, then start with the whole knight thing again. not very interesting but lots and lots a moves.
    Sounds like a cool game. Anyone want to play that?
  14. Joined
    19 Oct '05
    Moves
    19911
    29 Jul '07 02:35
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    There are 20 possible 1st moves and 20 possible replies so that is 40 possible moves for move 1.

    After that it could be somewhat more or less than 20 depending on the position but lets keep it simple and say the average number of moves is 20. Therefore in a typical game of 40 moves there are 40 X 40 options or only 1600 possible moves. If a game were ...[text shortened]... sumes only 20 possible moves each move but in many positions the possibilities will be far more.
    yes, this is the thread. total amount of possible chess moves in a game.
  15. Joined
    08 May '07
    Moves
    4853
    29 Jul '07 09:26
    From Fred Reinfeld's introduction to "My System" by Aron Nimzovich:

    "Again I quote Dr. Davidson:
    'Kasner and Newman estimate that the total of possible moves in a game of chess is 10 to the power (10 to the 50th). This is a figure for which we have no name. It is composed first by taking a one with fifty zeroes after it, thus: 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and then multiplying ten by itself that many times. An ordinary 200-page book accommodates 330,000 letters or numerals; three such volumes would provide space for about a million numerals. To write the number 10 to the 10th to the 50th power would take 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 volumes: all this space being required merely to write down the numeral indicating all the different moves in a chess game.'
    Luckily only an infinitesimal proportion of all possible chess moves possess practical significance; but even this small number gives us a game whose complexity is as disturbing as it is attractive."


    Very lucky! Now I'm not inclined to check the math....but that is a serious number of zeroes.
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