Moving to classical Openings

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
GM Christian Bauer in "The Philidor Files" gives 3. Bc4 Bg4!? as a "perfectly valid alternative, but after 3. d4 (the line discussed in this thread) he gives 3 ... Bg4?! without comment on the move in particular, but gives lines that lead to a healthy White advantage- as close to a "refutation" as a GM would be willing to commit to in print.

Paul

That's more like it.

Originally posted by Goshen
3...Bg4 loses a pawn. It's just like 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Nxe4?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Bg4 4. dxe5 Nd7 5. exd6 Bxd6 and the game is on. The problem is that the newbies have no idea what they are doing, that is what always makes it so painful to watch. What's wrong with 3. ... Nxe4 in the other line you give, I have no idea?

Originally posted by heinzkat
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Bg4 4. dxe5 Nd7 5. exd6 Bxd6 and the game is on. The problem is that the newbies have no idea what they are doing, that is what always makes it so painful to watch. What's wrong with 3. ... Nxe4 in the other line you give, I have no idea?

Thats the petroff. 4.Qe2 Qe7 5.Qxe4 d6 6.d4

Originally posted by Goshen
4.Qe2 Qe7 5.Qxe4 d6 6.d4

But what's wrong with the line? 4. Qe2 Qe7 5. Qxe4 d6 6. d4 dxe5 7. dxe5 Nc6 and the game is on. Black is not afraid.

Originally posted by heinzkat
But what's wrong with the line? 4. Qe2 Qe7 5. Qxe4 d6 6. d4 dxe5 7. dxe5 Nc6 and the game is on. Black is not afraid.

Would YOU play that line? Really. In a serious game would you play 3...Nxe4?

Originally posted by Goshen
Would YOU play that line? Really. In a serious game would you play 3...Nxe4?

I would never play 3. Nxe5, always 2. ... Nf6 3. d4?!

Let alone as Black, I keep far away from 1. ... e5, brrrr...!

Originally posted by heinzkat
Let alone as Black, I keep far away from 1. ... e5, brrrr...!

I can smell your sort from a mile off!

Originally posted by Goshen
I can smell your sort from a mile off!

It's just far too scary, White can launch anything on 1. ... e5.

Originally posted by heinzkat
It's just far too scary, White can launch anything on 1. ... e5.

You'd rather play 1...e6 and your pieces start killing themselves for squares? Or maybe 1...c5 which is so overrated?

Originally posted by heinzkat
It's just far too scary, White can launch anything on 1. ... e5.

I don't think that it's a coincidence that the modern approach to Philidor's after 1. e4 is to play ...d6, ...Nf6, ...Nbd7 and only then play ...e5, precisely to avoid all that other stuff.

Originally posted by RabbitCold
I have realized I waste time studying openings when I am not good enough to study them. I think I will just play d4 as white and e5 d5 as black to counter whites pawn push. Then I will learn from mistakes by analyzing computer. I should be doing more tactics instead of reading opening books.

Anyone use this approach and have tips for me?

Thanks.

What you've discovered is that there is more to chess than the opening. The reason most people start to obsess about opening theory is that you can lose really quite quickly in openings due to lack of knowledge. Essentially you need a strategy to minimise and focus your openings workload.

I play pretty much anything as white, some lines I'm more interested in and know some fairly sharp attacks, for other stuff I find a silly little "low theory" sideline that black probably hasn't seen to give me something to do when someone does something I don't want to spend time learning.

For example, after 1. e4 you get the Caro-Kann (1. e4 c6) only rarely. It's not worth my while learning the Panov-Botvinnik attack, which may be the best way to play, but my opponent probably knows it better than me. So I play the Fantasy Variation (1. e4 c6 2. c4 f3!?) which is playable, and rarer, most people playing white don't play it, so while black won't exactly be quaking in his boots, he won't have the advantage of playing an opening he knows well either.

You need to find lines like that you can rely on for all the important openings, which you may only know a few moves deep but understand the basic ideas of well enough to get through to the middle game with some chance of a good result. Once you've got a basic repetoire then you can focus on either widening, or deepening it.

With black I'm aiming for depth, you start at a half tempo disadvantage and so can't afford inaccuracies. As white I like to play everything and anything as then you can adjust your attack to least suit your opponent. This involves some risk, but you have an extra half move.

In order for you to win a game you need your opponent to make a mistake that changes the result, and if they are any good you need to induce that. The main lines are the main lines largely because they give both you and your opponent the maximum chance of making a game losing mistake. If you play the opening for safety only you will find that your opponent does not get enough of a chance to make a mistake and you end up with level end games.

Originally posted by RabbitCold
I have realized I waste time studying openings when I am not good enough to study them. I think I will just play d4 as white and e5 d5 as black to counter whites pawn push. Then I will learn from mistakes by analyzing computer. I should be doing more tactics instead of reading opening books.

Anyone use this approach and have tips for me?

Thanks.

Good idea. In addition, get Tartakower's 500 Master Games. Plenty of e4,e5 and d4,d5 games there.

Originally posted by Alzheimer
Philidor isn't bad at all. I guess in an otb game it is actually a good weapon.

I guess some white player underestimate that opening and think they can play it it without any knowledge.

I have some good results with it.

sorry wrong quote

Originally posted by Maxime Ferlatte
If wiki says it's solid, it's definitely not terrible.

Real chess authorities are active there 😉😉

Originally posted by Goshen
Philidor, really? I thought it was a terrible opening.

wiki says : Today it is known as a solid, though passive, choice for Black, and is seldom seen in top level play except as an alternative to the heavily analysed openings which can ensue after the normal 2....Nc6.

If wiki says it's solid, it's definitely not terrible.