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  1. 01 Oct '11 20:14 / 4 edits


    County match, Oxfordshire vs Berkshire, 2 hours each for all moves.

    In the post mortem in the pub we couldn't actually find a clear win for White, though it must surely have been there. Can anyone here find one?

    48. ... Qf7+ would have been a classy way for me to win - swap off to a king and pawn ending a pawn down but with a winning position!
  2. 01 Oct '11 21:48 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    [pgn]
    [Event "Chilterns 2011"]
    [Date "2011.10.01"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "Tavares, Shawn"]
    [Black "D'Souza Eva, Jon"]
    [WhiteElo "-"]
    [BlackElo "-"]
    [ECO "A53"]
    [Opening "Old Indian Defence"]
    [Result "0-1"]

    1. e4 c6 2. c4 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d5 cxd5
    6. cxd5 Be7 7. Be2 O-O 8. Nf3 Ne8 9. Qb3 Kh8 10. Be3 f5
    11. exf5 Rxf5 12. Ne4 b6 13. Rc1 Bb wap off to a king and pawn ending a pawn down but with a winning position!
    35.f7 seems clear enough to me! the king can't get close to stop the pawn because of the fork on the bishop.

    The idea is to imobilize blacks queen and then maneuver

    35.f7 Qf8 36.Qf3 Bb1 37.Qb3 Bf5 38.Qe3 Bb1 39.Qc1 Bf5 40.Qc7

    edit: after looking even longer how about 33.h5! if you look the pawn is taboo but the threat of hxg6+ can't be adequately defended.

    edit 2 and 3:... Qf4 looks like it just wastes time letting your bishop get to a better square.

    and even 34.Qf3! seems good with the idea to prevent ...Bd3 and the threat of h5 looms heavily so 34...h5 35.Qa3 and thats resigning time to me
  3. 02 Oct '11 02:54
    playing 1..c6 is enough to class any win as undeserved.

    Can you not just play 2...d5 anyway in that position?
    Seem to recall Kasparov and Karpov had arguments with that position
    in a one of their WC matches.
  4. 02 Oct '11 13:43
    I don't see a forced win, but I don't like white's whole plan beginning with Bg5 and ending with him saccing back the exchange after black plays Nd4. Bg5 allows black to put his knight on d4 in the first place and its very effective there. I'd favor something like playing Nc3 to stabiling the d-pawn, then Be4 followed by f4 eventually. As black doesn't have a lot of counterplay, white should just squeeze black until the material advantage matters. White just got impatient and tried to play too actively.
  5. Standard member Lundos
    Back to basics
    02 Oct '11 13:45
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    playing 1..c6 is enough to class any win as undeserved.
    +1
  6. 02 Oct '11 19:06
    So basically what was black's gameplan from move 11 ish onwards? Instead of 15 Qd3 why didn't white go for Bb5-c6? Was there any real need for 16 g4 from white?

    While I don't blame the non-OTB players (such as the green man) for clowning around in the previous posts, there is quite a lot in the game before jumping to claims of at move 47 or 49 white or black is winning.
  7. 02 Oct '11 19:07
    Originally posted by Erekose
    I don't see a forced win, but I don't like white's whole plan beginning with Bg5 and ending with him saccing back the exchange after black plays Nd4. Bg5 allows black to put his knight on d4 in the first place and its very effective there. I'd favor something like playing Nc3 to stabiling the d-pawn, then Be4 followed by f4 eventually. As black doesn't ha ...[text shortened]... l the material advantage matters. White just got impatient and tried to play too actively.
    I didn't like that plan either... I think a little too aggressively to play something like Nc3 in a clearly better position seeing as the d pawn is tactically protected since if the bishop takes then Rxc7 loses a piece and if the knight takes then Rxc8 followed by Nxd6 is tough. I like the simple move g5, it takes the f6 square away from black pushes forward and if you were to take all the pieces away there would be a wall that the black king can't cross.
  8. 02 Oct '11 19:21
    Originally posted by kopatov
    So basically what was black's gameplan from move 11 ish onwards? Instead of 15 Qd3 why didn't white go for Bb5-c6? Was there any real need for 16 g4 from white?

    While I don't blame the non-OTB players (such as the green man) for clowning around in the previous posts, there is quite a lot in the game before jumping to claims of at move 47 or 49 white or black is winning.
    What do you mean "jumping to claims" white was clearly in a better position from early on and miffed it. The OP states that they couldn't find a clear win for white in the post mortem and asked if anybody here could find one. And what do you do after 15.Bb5 Nef6 16.Nxf6 Nxf6 17.Bc6? it looks very nice but i don't really find it easy to continue.

    as to your question to 16.g4 is that he wants to get a knight to e6 and there are some tempo gains later on with Ba6 after the rook retreats to f8 as I don't think the exchange sac was expected or even good in hindsight.
  9. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    02 Oct '11 19:24 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by kopatov
    So basically what was black's gameplan from move 11 ish onwards? Instead of 15 Qd3 why didn't white go for Bb5-c6? Was there any real need for 16 g4 from white?

    While I don't blame the non-OTB players (such as the green man) for clowning around in the previous posts, there is quite a lot in the game before jumping to claims of at move 47 or 49 white or black is winning.
    He has decades of OTB experience, is a published chess author, and was the 2010 Scottish Chess Player of the year. Who are you? Are you the chess player of the year anywhere?

    Of course, you don't need to be, because I am not questioning your chess judgment or abilities at all- merely your forum behavior and intentions.

    It's OK if you don't like the guy, but you diminish your credibility when you add insults that have nothing to do with the thread.

    As for your comments on the game, I had exactly the same reaction you did about 16. g4- the f-file became weaker for white, and it distracts from white's natural queenside play, not to mention the negative impact it has on white's potential endgame.

    I wonder if he thought he saw something tactically, and realized later that it failed.
  10. 02 Oct '11 19:34
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    What do you mean "jumping to claims" white was clearly in a better position from early on and miffed it. The OP states that they couldn't find a clear win for white in the post mortem and asked if anybody here could find one. And what do you do after 15.Bb5 Nef6 16.Nxf6 Nxf6 17.Bc6? it looks very nice but i don't really find it easy to continue.

    as to y ...[text shortened]... ok retreats to f8 as I don't think the exchange sac was expected or even good in hindsight.
    There is quite a lot in the position to be analyzed. I didn't get as further than the 16 or 17th move. White's Qd3 is not forced and neither is g4 which is most certainly a blunder. There is no "clear win" but the possibility of long term pressure something only an OTB player would understand.

    Who has control of the light squares, and the c-file?
  11. 02 Oct '11 19:43
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    He has decades of OTB experience, is a published chess author, and was the 2010 Scottish Chess Player of the year. Who are you? Are you the chess player of the year anywhere?

    Of course, you don't need to be, because I am not questioning your chess judgment or abilities at all- merely your forum behavior and intentions.

    It's OK if you don' ...[text shortened]... .

    I wonder if he thought he saw something tactically, and realized later that it failed.
    If he is really a current OTB player over 2000, then that is the most idiotic comment I have ever seen by a 2000+ player. c6 leads for example to the CaroKann (played by World Champions such as Wilhelm Steinitz, Smyslvo, Karpov). I wouldn't expect you to know any of this though, Stockfish wouldn't tell you this (you posted on here that a beginner should learn chess from Stockfish as this is what you do).
  12. 02 Oct '11 19:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kopatov
    There is quite a lot in the position to be analyzed. I didn't get as further than the 16 or 17th move. White's Qd3 is not forced and neither is g4 which is most certainly a blunder. There is no "clear win" but the possibility of long term pressure something only an OTB player would understand.

    Who has control of the light squares, and the c-file?
    g4 is most certainly a blunder??? While I agree they aren't forced i think you are mistaken calling it a blunder... where is the forced win for black after g4?

    While long term pressure is indeed nice in OTB play on the flip side I wouldn't want to sit there for a two hour game with a nice position but no clear plan to follow up with. g4 has a clear plan shorterm - knight to e6 outpost bishop to a6 and the king is felling pinched - longterm - further expansion on the kingside.
  13. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    02 Oct '11 20:05
    Originally posted by kopatov
    If he is really a current OTB player over 2000, then that is the most idiotic comment I have ever seen by a 2000+ player. c6 leads for example to the CaroKann (played by World Champions such as Wilhelm Steinitz, Smyslvo, Karpov). I wouldn't expect you to know any of this though, Stockfish wouldn't tell you this (you posted on here that a beginner should learn chess from Stockfish as this is what you do).
    GP was being funny and taking a friendly jab and Caro Kann and Slav players. Are you joking as well? Surely this isn't a second case of his making a joke, and you are the only one not to get it (if someone else comes on and says they took him seriously, I'll post a correction)? It's a good idea to expect that everything he posts has an element of humor in it. He jokes on me pretty regularly, so I have lots of practice!

    The other commentary I'll just let pass, as each reader will make his/her own conclusion regardless of whatever else we type.

    The discussion about 16. g4 is in line with what the thread is about, and we should continue that.

    In terms of 16. g4 being a blunder, I suppose it depends on the context. I didn't see it as a tactical blunder so much as an endgame blunder, in that it immediately made white's f-pawn a backward pawn on an semi-open file, and gave black new hope.
  14. Standard member Lundos
    Back to basics
    02 Oct '11 20:08
    Originally posted by kopatov
    If he is really a current OTB player over 2000, then that is the most idiotic comment I have ever seen by a 2000+ player. c6 leads for example to the CaroKann (played by World Champions such as Wilhelm Steinitz, Smyslvo, Karpov). I wouldn't expect you to know any of this though, Stockfish wouldn't tell you this (you posted on here that a beginner should learn chess from Stockfish as this is what you do).
    Haha, you really don't know a funny comment from a serious one?
  15. 02 Oct '11 21:42 / 1 edit
    The opening - I've had bad results after 1.e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. cxd5 Qxd5 5. Nc3. Black ends up with a Centre Counter without his lovely pawn on c6 which is key to holding his queenside together. I've lost several quick blitz games trying to defend that and I didn't fancy trying it in a proper one. I'm very happy with Old Indian positions and was pleased with the way the opening went.

    I can quite understand GP's disdain for such stuff. I was a very tactical, attacking player when I was young, but I found I could only go so far with it. I just wasn't talented enough to beat strong players with my dodgy piece sacrifices and pawn storms and so endeavered to try to play a bit more positionally, or at least try to avoid being a piece down before the middlegame got underway.

    I think 10. ... f5 was premature and after he took it I regretted it and wished I'd played 10. ... g6 instead with the intenting of recapturing on f5 with a pawn.

    I thought 16. g4 was an excellent move. It was one I had been scared of before he castled, which is why I didn't play h6 earlier to prevent a knight coming to g5.

    When he played g4 _after_ castling I realised that I was probably losing the exchange after Bh6 and Ng5 ideas and so decided to sac it straight away and go for a cheapo (17. ... Nc7 threatens 18. ... Ba6). I also thought I would probably be able to win his d-pawn. As I was waiting for his 18th move I realised that I wasn't going to be able to win the d-pawn as all the tactics were in his favour. After that I just pushed pieces around, hoping to avoid losing before move 25 and hoping against hope that he might drift into time trouble.

    I also thought his 28th move, Rxd4, returning the exchange, was absolutely correct. It was easy to see that he would win the pawn and after that White was well on top in a simpler position.

    I wasn't so sure about 31. Nf6+. If it worked and he could force his f-pawn home then it was winning, if not then I thought I had a whiff of a chance.

    My 32nd move, Bc8 was garbage. 33. h5 seems to be an easy win for White. However when he let me get away with that I realised that my bishop could get into the game via a6.

    We both had about five minutes left on the clock from about move 50. However my endgame technique held up better than his thanks to thousands of playchess.com blitz games played by me when tired and/or drunk, though I did keep wanting to play "pre-moves" (note to self - marking an arrow on the board with a magic marker is frowned upon in OTB chess).

    I found all this talk of Player of the Year quite amusing because my opponent was West Indian Sportsman of the Year in 1982 (an award sponsored, rather unfortunately, by the West Indian Tobacco Company).