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  1. 28 Aug '10 17:48 / 3 edits


    Some time ago, in the beginner tips thread (132813) someone posted a tip never to take the B-pawn with your Queen.

    I remembered this as I was playing an OTB game recently and my opponent took my G-pawn with his Queen. I tried to find a way to profit from this move, however I was not successful. I couldn't take his Queen nor could I threaten him any more than if he had not taken my pawn.

    Was my opponent right to make that move or did I miss a perfect opportunity to take advantage of the situation?

    I am black and black is to move next (white just took my G-pawn).
  2. 28 Aug '10 17:56
    There are no hard and fast rules like 'never take the QNP' more like general guidelines.

    It's important to note that your opponent took your G pawn which you hope will protect your king when you castle kingside...Your rook is in trouble, and you'll need to offer your queen in exchange to protect it. Not a fun position to be in mentally.
  3. 28 Aug '10 18:06 / 2 edits
    I understand that it was meant as a guideline, I was just wondering if that guideline was applicable in this situation.

    You're completely right that I shouldn't have let him taken that pawn. I most probably would not have let it happen if I was playing this game on the computer but I haven't got much OTB playing experience and as such miss a lot of opportunities and possible dangers.

    My countermove was indeed Qf6, which I think took away most of the danger. He retreated his Queen at that point.
  4. 28 Aug '10 18:13
    The guideline wasn't applicable in that situation primarily because that was not the B pawn.
  5. 28 Aug '10 18:15
    And again you're right..... maybe I should accept my intellectual limitations and find an easier game to play.
  6. 28 Aug '10 18:36 / 1 edit
    The original idea of never take the b pawn with your queen (although I don't recall actually seeing this here or anywhere) was meant as follows:

    You don't want to waste time in the OPENING trying to round up stray pawns when development is at stake.

    The g pawn and b pawn comparison is similar. The only problem is that you have no way to gain time on the intruding queen in your position. In fact, you have to follow up your pawn sacrifice with a queen trade. This gives him the opportunity to get ahead in material AND simplify. With less pieces on the board, he is in less danger of being attacked.

    This is a general principle that you really can't use a lot of the time.

    The one exception to pawn grabbing in the opening is center pawns. A center pawn is worth losing a little time, but that is a very close call too.

    Here is a good example of where sacrificing the g pawn for development is worth it:



    Black has just played Qc7 and now grabbing the g pawn will cost white a lot of time.

    Here is a playthrough of the variation:



    Black will castle queenside, attack on the queenside, and white's king really doesn't have a great spot to go. The position is very double edged, but I was just trying to illustrate how black can get some stuff going for the sacrifice.

    Edit: Note black's trumps.

    He has more pieces developed.
    His rook is really actively placed (on an open file).
    His king will get to safety faster.
    White will lose time retreating his queen later (to get her back into the game).
  7. 28 Aug '10 19:12
    Paul,

    In your variation, would it be a good idea for white to aim to castle his king on the king-side? I find in positions where the opponent's king-side rook is wide open like that it makes defending your own king quite difficult when castled.
  8. 28 Aug '10 22:13
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    And again you're right..... maybe I should accept my intellectual limitations and find an easier game to play.
    You haven't been playing for very long, this is a perfectly reasonable mistake.
  9. 29 Aug '10 06:15
    Originally posted by amolv06
    Paul,

    In your variation, would it be a good idea for white to aim to castle his king on the king-side? I find in positions where the opponent's king-side rook is wide open like that it makes defending your own king quite difficult when castled.
    Going kingside is very dangerous for white. In the main lines, he usually just keeps his king on e1 for a very long time. I should note that one of white's strategies is to play h4 followed by marching the h pawn to the queening sqaure. For that reason, the rook needs to remain on h1. Also after h4, white can play Rh3 and slide it along the third rank.
  10. 29 Aug '10 11:58
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    The original idea of never take the b pawn with your queen (although I don't recall actually seeing this here or anywhere) was meant as follows:

    You don't want to waste time in the OPENING trying to round up stray pawns when development is at stake.

    The g pawn and b pawn comparison is similar. The only problem is that you have no way to ...[text shortened]... material AND simplify. With less pieces on the board, he is in less danger of being attacked.
    There is, however, one difference. In the typical B-pawn case (IME usually a Sicilian), the black queen will be both out of touch with the rest of her pieces, and subjected to badgering by white's forces. This means that, for that one pawn, she'll have to go through a couple of manoeuvres to get back to safety, all for that one pawn. And since both sides have, in that situation, both already castled kingside, she isn't really much of a threat either, out there on her own on B2 without any cover.

    In the case the OP posted, this was no problem at all. His opponent's white queen was on the side where his pieces were set to attack; there was no black piece ready to attack her without messing up his position even more; and she could have got back to safety quite easily if black made threatening noises. What's more, since black hadn't castled yet, she had now gained a pawn and made black's kingside castled position so much less secure. Black would probably either have to get his queenside pieces out pronto and castle there - also a side not entirely hole-free - or leave his king in the centre, which is even worse. All that for only two tempi.
    Of course, as you demonstrate quite clearly, this isn't the case nearly every time white takes the G-pawn. But it also quite easily can be. In the case of the B-pawn, it's worth it much more rarely. The main reason, as I see it, is simply the asymmetry of the board - the G-pawn is on the kingside, the B-pawn on the queenside. Of course, this same asymmetry means that I've seen much fewer cases where the queen could take the G-pawn in the first case. But when she can, it's often - not always - safer than taking the B-pawn.

    Richard
  11. 29 Aug '10 12:15
    This was the orginal thread?

    http://www.playtheimmortalgame.com/board/showthread.php?subject=Beginner_tips&threadid=132813
  12. 29 Aug '10 13:04
    Yes, it was that thread, Willzzz.
  13. 29 Aug '10 13:09
    Thanks for these replies guys. Will try to incorporate all of it into my upcoming games.