Not so 'forced draw'?

Was just offered and accepted a draw in this game, but was there a win for black?

EVENT	Open invite
SITE	http://www.timeforchess.com
DATE	2011.09.23
ROUND	?
WHITE	Trev33
BLACK	ElsaVonBrabant
WHITEELO	1723
BLACKELO	1910

• 8
• a
• 7
• b
• 6
• c
• 5
• d
• 4
• e
• 3
• f
• 2
• g
• 1
• h

1.	e4	f5
2.	exf5	Ke8f7
3.	d4	Ng8f6
4.	Ng1f3	Kf7g8
5.	c4	d5
6.	c5	Bc8xf5
7.	Bf1d3	e6
8.	Qd1e2	Qd8e8
9.	Bc1g5	Bf5xd3
10.	Qe2xd3	b6
11.	b4	a5
12.	bxa5	bxc5
13.	dxc5	Nf6e4
14.	Bg5e3	Ra8xa5
15.	Nb1d2	Ne4xc5
16.	Be3xc5	Ra5xc5
17.	O-O	Nb8c6
18.	Rf1e1	Nc6b4
19.	Qd3b3	Nb4c2
20.	Ra1c1	Nc2xe1
21.	Rc1xe1	Rc5b5
22.	Qb3a4	Rb5b8
23.	Qa4g4	h5
24.	Qg4h3	Rh8h6
25.	Nf3g5	Rb8b2
26.	Qh3d3	Bf8b4
27.	Re1xe6	Rh6xe6
28.	Qd3h7	Kg8f8
29.	Qh7f5	Re6f6
30.	Ng5h7	Kf8g8
31.	Nh7xf6	gxf6
32.	Nd2f3	Qe8f7
33.	g3	Rb2xa2
34.	Qf5b1	Ra2a4
35.	Qb1b3	Qf7d7
36.	Kg1g2	c5
37.	Qb3c2	Ra4a3
38.	Qc2g6	Qd7g7
39.	Qg6e8	Qg7f8
40.	Qe8g6	Qf8g7
41.	Qg6e8	Kg8h7
42.	Qe8xh5	Qg7h6

0

Invert BoardPGNHeaders

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.timeforchess.com"]
[Date "2011.09.23"]
[EndDate "2011.10.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Trev33"]
[Black "ElsaVonBrabant"]
[WhiteRating "1723"]
[BlackRating "1910"]
[WhiteElo "1723"]
[BlackElo "1910"]
[GameId "8726544"]

1. e4 f5 2. exf5 Ke8f7 3. d4 Ng8f6 4. Ng1f3 Kf7g8 5. c4 d5 6. c5 Bc8xf5 7. Bf1d3 e6 8. Qd1e2 Qd8e8 9. Bc1g5 Bf5xd3 10. Qe2xd3 b6 11. b4 a5 12. bxa5 bxc5 13. dxc5 Nf6e4 14. Bg5e3 Ra8xa5 15. Nb1d2 Ne4xc5 16. Be3xc5 Ra5xc5 17. O-O Nb8c6 18. Rf1e1 Nc6b4 19. Qd3b3 Nb4c2 20. Ra1c1 Nc2xe1 21. Rc1xe1 Rc5b5 22. Qb3a4 Rb5b8 23. Qa4g4 h5 24. Qg4h3 Rh8h6 25. Nf3g5 Rb8b2 26. Qh3d3 Bf8b4 27. Re1xe6 Rh6xe6 28. Qd3h7 Kg8f8 29. Qh7f5 Re6f6 30. Ng5h7 Kf8g8 31. Nh7xf6 gxf6 32. Nd2f3 Qe8f7 33. g3 Rb2xa2 34. Qf5b1 Ra2a4 35. Qb1b3 Qf7d7 36. Kg1g2 c5 37. Qb3c2 Ra4a3 38. Qc2g6 Qd7g7 39. Qg6e8 Qg7f8 40. Qe8g6 Qf8g7 41. Qg6e8 Kg8h7 42. Qe8xh5 Qg7h6 1/2-1/2

EVENT	Open invite
SITE	http://www.timeforchess.com
DATE	2011.09.23
ROUND	?
WHITE	Trev33
BLACK	ElsaVonBrabant
WHITEELO	1723
BLACKELO	1910

• 8
• a
• 7
• b
• 6
• c
• 5
• d
• 4
• e
• 3
• f
• 2
• g
• 1
• h

1.	e4	f5
2.	exf5	Ke8f7
3.	d4	Ng8f6
4.	Ng1f3	Kf7g8
5.	c4	d5
6.	c5	Bc8xf5
7.	Bf1d3	e6
8.	Qd1e2	Qd8e8
9.	Bc1g5	Bf5xd3
10.	Qe2xd3	b6
11.	b4	a5
12.	bxa5	bxc5
13.	dxc5	Nf6e4
14.	Bg5e3	Ra8xa5
15.	Nb1d2	Ne4xc5
16.	Be3xc5	Ra5xc5
17.	O-O	Nb8c6
18.	Rf1e1	Nc6b4
19.	Qd3b3	Nb4c2
20.	Ra1c1	Nc2xe1
21.	Rc1xe1	Rc5b5
22.	Qb3a4	Rb5b8
23.	Qa4g4	h5
24.	Qg4h3	Rh8h6
25.	Nf3g5	Rb8b2
26.	Qh3d3	Bf8b4
27.	Re1xe6	Rh6xe6
28.	Qd3h7	Kg8f8
29.	Qh7f5	Re6f6
30.	Ng5h7	Kf8g8
31.	Nh7xf6	gxf6
32.	Nd2f3	Qe8f7
33.	g3	Rb2xa2
34.	Qf5b1	Ra2a4
35.	Qb1b3	Qf7d7
36.	Kg1g2	c5
37.	Qb3c2	Ra4a3
38.	Qc2g6	Qd7g7
39.	Qg6e8	Qg7f8
40.	Qe8g6	Qf8g7
41.	Qg6e8	Kg8h7
42.	Qe8xh5

0

Invert BoardPGNHeaders

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.timeforchess.com"]
[Date "2011.09.23"]
[EndDate "2011.10.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Trev33"]
[Black "ElsaVonBrabant"]
[WhiteRating "1723"]
[BlackRating "1910"]
[WhiteElo "1723"]
[BlackElo "1910"]
[GameId "8726544"]

1. e4 f5 2. exf5 Ke8f7 3. d4 Ng8f6 4. Ng1f3 Kf7g8 5. c4 d5 6. c5 Bc8xf5 7. Bf1d3 e6 8. Qd1e2 Qd8e8 9. Bc1g5 Bf5xd3 10. Qe2xd3 b6 11. b4 a5 12. bxa5 bxc5 13. dxc5 Nf6e4 14. Bg5e3 Ra8xa5 15. Nb1d2 Ne4xc5 16. Be3xc5 Ra5xc5 17. O-O Nb8c6 18. Rf1e1 Nc6b4 19. Qd3b3 Nb4c2 20. Ra1c1 Nc2xe1 21. Rc1xe1 Rc5b5 22. Qb3a4 Rb5b8 23. Qa4g4 h5 24. Qg4h3 Rh8h6 25. Nf3g5 Rb8b2 26. Qh3d3 Bf8b4 27. Re1xe6 Rh6xe6 28. Qd3h7 Kg8f8 29. Qh7f5 Re6f6 30. Ng5h7 Kf8g8 31. Nh7xf6 gxf6 32. Nd2f3 Qe8f7 33. g3 Rb2xa2 34. Qf5b1 Ra2a4 35. Qb1b3 Qf7d7 36. Kg1g2 c5 37. Qb3c2 Ra4a3 38. Qc2g6 Qd7g7 39. Qg6e8 Qg7f8 40. Qe8g6 Qf8g7 41. Qg6e8 Kg8h7 42. Qe8xh5 Kgh7g8 43. Qh5e4 Qg7f8 44. Qe4g6 Kgg8h8 45. Qg6h5 Kgh8g7 46. Nf3h4 Ra3a8 47. Qh5g6 Kgg7h8 48. Qg6h5 Kgh8g8 49. Qh5g6 Qf8g7

You have some of the moves wrong 43. Qh5e4 is impossible for example - do you mean d5?
And some of black's king moves have an extra letter in them after the K: Kgh7g8 instead of Kg7g8 presumably

Originally posted by Trev33
Was just offered and accepted a draw in this game, but was there a win for black?

k i give up, what is wrong with the pgn?

EVENT	Open invite
SITE	http://www.timeforchess.com
DATE	2011.09.23
ROUND	?
WHITE	Trev33
BLACK	ElsaVonBrabant
WHITEELO	1723
BLACKELO	1910

• 8
• a
• 7
• b
• 6
• c
• 5
• d
• 4
• e
• 3
• f
• 2
• g
• 1
• h

1.	e4	f5
2.	exf5	Ke8f7
3.	d4	Ng8f6
4.	Ng1f3	Kf7g8
5.	c4	d5
6.	c5	Bc8xf5
7.	Bf1d3	e6
8.	Qd1e2	Qd8e8
9.	Bc1g5	Bf5xd3
10.	Qe2xd3	b6
11.	b4	a5
12.	bxa5	bxc5
13.	dxc5	Nf6e4
14.	Bg5e3	Ra8xa5
15.	Nb1d2	Ne4xc5
16.	Be3xc5	Ra5xc5
17.	O-O	Nb8c6
18.	Rf1e1	Nc6b4
19.	Qd3b3	Nb4c2
20.	Ra1c1	Nc2xe1
21.	Rc1xe1	Rc5b5
22.	Qb3a4	Rb5b8
23.	Qa4g4	h5
24.	Qg4h3	Rh8h6
25.	Nf3g5	Rb8b2
26.	Qh3d3	Bf8b4
27.	Re1xe6	Rh6xe6
28.	Qd3h7	Kg8f8
29.	Qh7f5	Re6f6
30.	Ng5h7	Kf8g8
31.	Nh7xf6	gxf6
32.	Nd2f3	Qe8f7
33.	g3	Rb2xa2
34.	Qf5b1	Ra2a4
35.	Qb1b3	Qf7d7
36.	Kg1g2	c5
37.	Qb3c2	Ra4a3
38.	Qc2g6	Qd7g7
39.	Qg6e8	Qg7f8
40.	Qe8g6	Qf8g7
41.	Qg6e8	Kg8h7
42.	Qe8xh5	Kh7g8
43.	Qh5f5	Qg7f8
44.	Qf5g6	Kg8h8
45.	Qg6h5	Kh8g7
46.	Nf3h4	Ra3a8
47.	Qh5g6	Kg7h8
48.	Qg6h5	Kh8g8
49.	Qh5g6	Qf8g7

0

Invert BoardPGNHeaders

[Event "Open invite"]
[Site "http://www.timeforchess.com"]
[Date "2011.09.23"]
[EndDate "2011.10.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Trev33"]
[Black "ElsaVonBrabant"]
[WhiteRating "1723"]
[BlackRating "1910"]
[WhiteElo "1723"]
[BlackElo "1910"]
[GameId "8726544"]

1. e4 f5 2. exf5 Ke8f7 3. d4 Ng8f6 4. Ng1f3 Kf7g8 5. c4 d5 6. c5 Bc8xf5 7. Bf1d3 e6 8. Qd1e2 Qd8e8 9. Bc1g5 Bf5xd3 10. Qe2xd3 b6 11. b4 a5 12. bxa5 bxc5 13. dxc5 Nf6e4 14. Bg5e3 Ra8xa5 15. Nb1d2 Ne4xc5 16. Be3xc5 Ra5xc5 17. O-O Nb8c6 18. Rf1e1 Nc6b4 19. Qd3b3 Nb4c2 20. Ra1c1 Nc2xe1 21. Rc1xe1 Rc5b5 22. Qb3a4 Rb5b8 23. Qa4g4 h5 24. Qg4h3 Rh8h6 25. Nf3g5 Rb8b2 26. Qh3d3 Bf8b4 27. Re1xe6 Rh6xe6 28. Qd3h7 Kg8f8 29. Qh7f5 Re6f6 30. Ng5h7 Kf8g8 31. Nh7xf6 gxf6 32. Nd2f3 Qe8f7 33. g3 Rb2xa2 34. Qf5b1 Ra2a4 35. Qb1b3 Qf7d7 36. Kg1g2 c5 37. Qb3c2 Ra4a3 38. Qc2g6 Qd7g7 39. Qg6e8 Qg7f8 40. Qe8g6 Qf8g7 41. Qg6e8 Kg8h7 42. Qe8xh5 Kh7g8 43. Qh5f5 Qg7f8 44. Qf5g6 Kg8h8 45. Qg6h5 Kh8g7 46. Nf3h4 Ra3a8 47. Qh5g6 Kg7h8 48. Qg6h5 Kh8g8 49. Qh5g6 Qf8g7

YES. Thank you.

I'm right though, there's no forced draw there?

Originally posted by Trev33
I'm right though, there's no forced draw there?

Originally posted by tomtom232
43.Qe8+ instead of 43.Qf5 seems to keep the perpetual.

Well personally i'd say being a rook up is normally enough to win. Just exchange Queens?

Sorry? 🙄 ... second black move?

Can't be bothered to go past that, it must have been a classic game! 😀

-m.

Originally posted by Trev33
oops, that's what it was supposed to be. I'll crawl back into my cave lol

Look at the first pgn, forced draw?

Originally posted by tomtom232
No, it doesn't appear to be a perpetual. It is a known pattern that one side can't perpetual with a lone queen vs king and queen in the corner unless the position has other factors that keep the king out of g7.

@torten

• 8
• a
• 7
• b
• 6
• c
• 5
• d
• 4
• e
• 3
• f
• 2
• g
• 1
• h

1.	e4	f5
2.	exf5	Ke8f7
3.	d4	Ng8f6
4.	Ng1f3	Kf7g8
5.	c4	d5
6.	c5	Bc8xf5
7.	Bf1d3	e6
8.	Qd1e2	Qd8e8
9.	Bc1g5	Bf5xd3
10.	Qe2xd3	b6
11.	b4	a5
12.	bxa5	bxc5
13.	dxc5	Nf6e4
14.	Bg5e3	Ra8xa5
15.	Nb1d2	Ne4xc5
16.	Be3xc5	Ra5xc5
17.	O-O	Nb8c6
18.	Rf1e1	Nc6b4
19.	Qd3b3	Nb4c2
20.	Ra1c1	Nc2xe1
21.	Rc1xe1	Rc5b5
22.	Qb3a4	Rb5b8
23.	Qa4g4	h5
24.	Qg4h3	Rh8h6
25.	Nf3g5	Rb8b2
26.	Qh3d3	Bf8b4
27.	Re1xe6	Rh6xe6
28.	Qd3h7	Kg8f8
29.	Qh7f5	Re6f6
30.	Ng5h7	Kf8g8
31.	Nh7xf6	gxf6
32.	Nd2f3	Qe8f7
33.	g3	Rb2xa2
34.	Qf5b1	Ra2a4
35.	Qb1b3	Qf7d7
36.	Kg1g2	c5
37.	Qb3c2	Ra4a3
38.	Qc2g6	Qd7g7
39.	Qg6e8	Qg7f8
40.	Qe8g6	Qf8g7
41.	Qg6e8	Kg8h7
42.	Qe8xh5	Qg7h6
43.	Qh5f7	Qh6g7
44.	Qf7h5	Kh7g8
45.	Qh5e8	Qg7f8
46.	Qe8g6	Kg8h8
47.	Qg6h5	Kh8g7

0

Invert BoardPGN

1. e4 f5 2. exf5 Ke8f7 3. d4 Ng8f6 4. Ng1f3 Kf7g8 5. c4 d5 6. c5 Bc8xf5 7. Bf1d3 e6 8. Qd1e2 Qd8e8 9. Bc1g5 Bf5xd3 10. Qe2xd3 b6 11. b4 a5 12. bxa5 bxc5 13. dxc5 Nf6e4 14. Bg5e3 Ra8xa5 15. Nb1d2 Ne4xc5 16. Be3xc5 Ra5xc5 17. O-O Nb8c6 18. Rf1e1 Nc6b4 19. Qd3b3 Nb4c2 20. Ra1c1 Nc2xe1 21. Rc1xe1 Rc5b5 22. Qb3a4 Rb5b8 23. Qa4g4 h5 24. Qg4h3 Rh8h6 25. Nf3g5 Rb8b2 26. Qh3d3 Bf8b4 27. Re1xe6 Rh6xe6 28. Qd3h7 Kg8f8 29. Qh7f5 Re6f6 30. Ng5h7 Kf8g8 31. Nh7xf6 gxf6 32. Nd2f3 Qe8f7 33. g3 Rb2xa2 34. Qf5b1 Ra2a4 35. Qb1b3 Qf7d7 36. Kg1g2 c5 37. Qb3c2 Ra4a3 38. Qc2g6 Qd7g7 39. Qg6e8 Qg7f8 40. Qe8g6 Qf8g7 41. Qg6e8 Kg8h7 42. Qe8xh5 Qg7h6 43.Qh5f7 Qh6g7 44.Qf7h5 Kh7g8 45.Qh5e8 Qg7f8 46.Qe8g6 Kg8h8 47.Qg6h5 Kh8g7

Originally posted by tomtom232
@torten

[pgn]1. e4 f5 2. exf5 Ke8f7 3. d4 Ng8f6 4. Ng1f3 Kf7g8 5. c4 d5 6. c5 Bc8xf5 7. Bf1d3 e6 8. Qd1e2 Qd8e8 9. Bc1g5 Bf5xd3 10. Qe2xd3 b6 11. b4 a5 12. bxa5 bxc5 13. dxc5 Nf6e4 14. Bg5e3 Ra8xa5 15. Nb1d2 Ne4xc5 16. Be3xc5 Ra5xc5 17. O-O Nb8c6 18. Rf1e1 Nc6b4 19. Qd3b3 Nb4c2 20. Ra1c1 Nc2xe1 21. Rc1xe1 Rc5b5 22. Qb3a4 Rb5b8 23. Qa4g4 h5 24. Qg4h3 Rh8 ...[text shortened]... 2. Qe8xh5 Qg7h6 43.Qh5f7 Qh6g7 44.Qf7h5 Kh7g8 45.Qh5e8 Qg7f8 46.Qe8g6 Kg8h8 47.Qg6h5 Kh8g7[/pgn]