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  1. 08 Jun '07 11:06
    You play a lot of games and against strong opponent you don't want to mess it up. So we use opening databases to learn the lines and so on...
    So you play 20 book moves and then it stops, only to learn that you reached complicated position about whose pros and cons you know little or nothing?? How do you handle this type of situations?
  2. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    08 Jun '07 11:09
    Originally posted by wakchessdragon
    You play a lot of games and against strong opponent you don't want to mess it up. So we use opening databases to learn the lines and so on...
    So you play 20 book moves and then it stops, only to learn that you reached complicated position about whose pros and cons you know little or nothing?? How do you handle this type of situations?
    Simple, you don't blindly play moves out of a base, you follow the line through to it's conclusion and assess the resulting position. If you feel you understand it, then follow that line. If you don't understand it, then don't follow it!
  3. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 Jun '07 12:09 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by wakchessdragon
    You play a lot of games and against strong opponent you don't want to mess it up. So we use opening databases to learn the lines and so on...
    So you play 20 book moves and then it stops, only to learn that you reached complicated position about whose pros and cons you know little or nothing?? How do you handle this type of situations?
    This is what happens when you carelessly follow a book line. I was in book until the game became "lost for black" in Game 2277047.

    There was plenty of opportunity to deviate when the game would have been a win for me but I left it too late. This game taught me that when following a book line I should always play it through to ensure the resultant position was one I was happy with and that I should ensure I deviated in plenty of time (even by making a deliberately inferior move at a non critical moment) so as to ensure I was happy playing the resultant position. This is what I have done in Game 3458606 where I did not like the end position by continuing to follow the book so on move 23 I played the deliberately inferior (non book) a5 taking my opponent out of book where all that now matters in this on-going game is our rating difference.
  4. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    08 Jun '07 13:36
    Originally posted by wakchessdragon
    You play a lot of games and against strong opponent you don't want to mess it up. So we use opening databases to learn the lines and so on...
    So you play 20 book moves and then it stops, only to learn that you reached complicated position about whose pros and cons you know little or nothing?? How do you handle this type of situations?
    It's not hard with ChessBase to make opening books that go deeper, say thirty moves.
  5. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 Jun '07 14:17
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    It's not hard with ChessBase to make opening books that go deeper, say thirty moves.
    Even so the need to follow your choosen line through applies.

    Lets say you are at move 20 in CB so choose a line that has a 100 games with a ratio of White wins / draws / black wins of 20/20/60. Playing black you feel this is good so blindly select and play this line. 5 moves later you reach a branch on whites move where he has 2 choices the first giving 20/-/- and the other -/20/60 so naturally he chooses the line with a 100% white success rate and you lose.

    A little investigation may have shown the line played only 20 times with a sucess rate of 12/6/2 would have been a better choice as 5 moves down the line black had the option of playing the move that gave those 2 wins.

    It is important to choose a line that you can control and if you cannot, once you commence down that line, get out of book at the earliest available opportunity. If you are the higher rated player the inferior move may actually be the move that wins it for you.
  6. 08 Jun '07 14:20
    Originally posted by wakchessdragon
    You play a lot of games and against strong opponent you don't want to mess it up. So we use opening databases to learn the lines and so on...
    So you play 20 book moves and then it stops, only to learn that you reached complicated position about whose pros and cons you know little or nothing?? How do you handle this type of situations?
    Yes, I've followed "book" openings slavishly, researching, etc., and sometimes it works. Most other times I screw up and transpose, mismatch, or just plain get lost.

    Then i look stooopit. Now I just play and have fun.
  7. 08 Jun '07 16:33
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    This is what happens when you carelessly follow a book line. I was in book until the game became "lost for black" in Game 2277047.

    There was plenty of opportunity to deviate when the game would have been a win for me but I left it too late. This game taught me that when following a book line I should always play it through to ensure the resultan ...[text shortened]... pponent out of book where all that now matters in this on-going game is our rating difference.
    It all depends on what you mean by 'book'. Your problem here was clearly that you were simply looking in the wrong book! 9...Qf5! (instead of 9...Qxd4+?) is known to refute white's opening (Double Muzio).
  8. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    08 Jun '07 16:40
    Originally posted by Sam The Sham
    Yes, I've followed "book" openings slavishly,
    In general Slavish opening books are more solid than Benoni!
  9. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 Jun '07 17:07
    Originally posted by Northern Lad
    It all depends on what you mean by 'book'. Your problem here was clearly that you were simply looking in the wrong book! 9...Qf5! (instead of 9...Qxd4+?) is known to refute white's opening (Double Muzio).
    Agreed. It was an old book and I was careless but the point remains that when following a book (or DB) you must ensure you follow the line through and like what you see at the end of it.

    After this game I did 2 things
    (1) I purchased a dozen new books with more up to date data; and
    (2) I ensured I always read to the end of my choosen line to make sure it was sound.

    The point I am hoping to make in this thread is the need to follow my advice in (2) if you intend using a book or database and that careless use can only result in lost games. Now I am more careful my rating has increased to a level above that which I really deserve.
  10. 08 Jun '07 19:59
    I once followed a line in an opening booklet that ended with an evaluation of equal. Got a nasty surprise when my opponent varied midway through the line and I had to resign in a few more moves. Funny thing is: The guy was rated about 2450 OTB and asked me if I was following the line given in the book. (I don’t remember which book it was…happened too long ago) When I said yes, he said he thought so and there was an error in the book’s analysis which he had found.
  11. 08 Jun '07 20:14
    Never.

    But, I did have an opening who was following book with me. He deviated after 22 moves to try something new and I hammered him for it

    You see, the moral of the story is, um..... um.....

    RK
  12. 08 Jun '07 20:32
    Originally posted by RahimK
    You see, the moral of the story is, um..... um.....RK
    ...pay attention to what you're doing and try to think for yourself.
  13. 08 Jun '07 21:44
    Originally posted by masscat
    ...pay attention to what you're doing and try to think for yourself.
    Deviate at your own risk.
  14. 08 Jun '07 23:19
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    This is what happens when you carelessly follow a book line. I was in book until the game became "lost for black" in Game 2277047.

    There was plenty of opportunity to deviate when the game would have been a win for me but I left it too late. This game taught me that when following a book line I should always play it through to ensure the resultan ...[text shortened]... pponent out of book where all that now matters in this on-going game is our rating difference.
    Some of the databases have percentages of white wins, black wins, and draw, which can also be misleading I realize.