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  1. 29 Sep '12 19:14
    Any body reccomend any good aggressive gambits or openings white can play if they suspect a kings indian defence ?

    I have some familiarity with ruy lopez
    italian game
    ponziani
    i usually prefer to play as black
  2. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    29 Sep '12 20:30 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by michael hackett
    Any body reccomend any good aggressive gambits or openings white can play if they suspect a kings indian defence ?

    I have some familiarity with ruy lopez
    italian game
    ponziani
    i usually prefer to play as black
    You might want to play the Bayonet Attack!

    YouTube

    YouTube&feature=relmfu
  3. Standard member kingshill
    Mr Ring Rusty
    29 Sep '12 20:44
    Are you intending to play d4..?

    Given your grade I think getting to the starting point of the bayonet would be an achievement.

    My suggestion would be to

    *concentrate on sensible development in the opening. Putting pieces on good squares and getting you king safe and castled.

    *Improve your middlegame. chesstempo.com would be a good suggestion for this.

    *Learn your basic mating endgames and how to exploit things like outside passed pawns etc
  4. 29 Sep '12 22:37 / 1 edit
    Find an easy opening, the practice tactics and see the board. Try to come up with a reason for making a move which is more than simply moving a piece.

    Don't try to play a gambit, it gives up a slight amount of material for a small development advantage. You have no idea how to capitalize on a developmental advantage.

    Only step away from basic chess principles when you know why are going it.

    See the board. Don't just give away your pieces.

    If you see the KID it's because you are playing 1.d4, why do that?
  5. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    30 Sep '12 00:04
    Look at the way Bobby Fischer played the King's Indian Defense here:

    YouTube&feature=related
  6. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    30 Sep '12 01:08
    Here is another game you need to be aware of if your opponent appears to be preparing to play the King's Indian Defense and you want to avoid it.

    YouTube&feature=related
  7. 30 Sep '12 15:07
    Originally posted by michael hackett
    Any body reccomend any good aggressive gambits or openings white can play if they suspect a kings indian defence ?
    Yeah, 1. e4.

    Richard

    (Or the Catalan.)
  8. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    01 Oct '12 10:41 / 7 edits
    I find the traditional way of playing against the KID, where white castles kingside developing the white bishop naturally can be difficult if you don't know the theory. The strategy, in a nutshell, is white advances pawns on the Queenside and black advances pawns on the kingside, opening up lines for major pieces. IMO, it is much harder to play the white side in this opening, blacks strategy makes a lot of his moves quite natural, when playing blitz this can often give black a big time advantage.

    I have started playing my white bishop to g2, matching blacks pawn structure. Yo could try something like this...

    1.d4 ..Nf6 2.c4 ..g6 3.g3 ..Bg7 4.Bg2 ..0-0 5.0-0 ..d6 6.Nc3 etc...

    The advantage of this is that you get a 'normal' game. Blacks strategy of advancing pawns on the kingside is still possible, but whites g3 pawn covers f4 (which black would normally try to install a pawn, or a knight in the main line). This significantly limits blacks options a requires a change in strategy which a lot of KID players are unfamiliar with.

    Here is a very recent game played in this line, as you can see, black really never gets going (and black is Hikaru Nakamura no less! A KID speicialist)

    If you want to see some analysis of this game, you can find it here...

    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8514



    I would advise you give this a try as it gives you a natural game where you develop your pieces and castle. White retains the advantage of the first move into the middle game quite easily.
  9. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    01 Oct '12 12:18 / 1 edit
    ...Also, there is an interesting transposition that you should be aware of.

    1.d4 ..g6
    2.c4 ..Bg7

    This is the 'Modern' defence, black would normally continue with ..c5. However, you can transpose the position by playing 2.e4, which leads into a pirc defence or a philidor. Obviously it is quite possible for all of this to end up in a Kings indian defence also. Watch the g8 Knight, as long as it remains undeveloped you may have opportunities to steer he game into an e4 opening, rather than a d4 line. The pirc defence requires black to know what he's doing, but it's not a very common opening and you'll find a lot of people really don't know how to play it. Again, white gets a natural game, Pieces might look something like Nf3 Nc3 Bc4 0-0 pawns on e4 &d4, open diagonal for the black bishop, etc..
  10. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    02 Oct '12 04:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb
    I find the traditional way of playing against the KID, where white castles kingside developing the white bishop naturally can be difficult if you don't know the theory. The strategy, in a nutshell, is white advances pawns on the Queenside and black advances pawns on the kingside, opening up lines for major pieces. IMO, it is much harder to play the white vantage of the first move into the middle game quite easily.
    You say after 11.Re1 Black's white square bishop is a problem because the only safe square is d7, but ideally black would like to keep that free for his c5 knight. I think, in this case there is no need to keep the d7 square available for the retreat of the c5 knight if it is attacked by b4 because he has a better square at e6 to go to. And blacks next moves 11.h6 eliminates the threat to the f6 knight. This is not the traditional KID, but the fianchetto variation by White and Black looks like he has acheived equality already.

    Black's move 15...Rb8 is a wasted move giving the advantage and initiative back to White. 15...a5 is the correct move. So that if 16.b4 ax4 opens the a-file for the Black rook.

    Instead of 17...c5 Black should probably have tried 17...Ng5+ and 18...Bxc3 because after 17...c5 18.e5 blocks any attack by the bishop as you pointed out.

    As Black on move 24, I would have preferred trading Knights instead of giving up the bishop for the knight with no apparent compensation since the position is now open instead of closed.
  11. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    02 Oct '12 14:06 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    You say after 11.Re1 Black's white square bishop is a problem because the only safe square is d7, but ideally black would like to keep that free for his c5 knight. I think, in this case there is no need to keep the d7 square available for the retreat of the c5 knight if it is attacked by b4 because he has a better square at e6 to go to. And blacks next mov for the knight with no apparent compensation since the position is now open instead of closed.
    You say after 11.Re1 Black's white square bishop is a problem because the only safe square is d7, but ideally black would like to keep that free for his c5 knight. I think, in this case there is no need to keep the d7 square available for the retreat of the c5 knight if it is attacked by b4 because he has a better square at e6 to go to. And blacks next moves 11.h6 eliminates the threat to the f6 knight. This is not the traditional KID, but the fianchetto variation by White and Black looks like he has acheived equality already.

    Yes, black has a nice square for his knight on e6, however, after Nf3 he has to make a move. Black played ..c5, which in hindsight you have to say is a mistake as white grabbed control of the centre. I'd be interested to hear what alternative you would suggest to blacks ..c5?

    Black's move 15...Rb8 is a wasted move giving the advantage and initiative back to White. 15...a5 is the correct move. So that if 16.b4 ax4 opens the a-file for the Black rook.

    This sounds pretty sensible to me. What is your alternative move to ..Rb8? I think white prepared b4 well, putting his rook on b1 before the advance was perhaps an attempt to avoid a rook exchange on the a file. Black seemed to respond to this move by occupying the b file with his rook. I haven't looked at it, but is there a possibility for white to recapture on b4 with the rook instead of the a pawn?

    Also, black might have seen whites Bg2 and tried to avoid future tactical complications by removing the rook from the h1-a8 diagonal.. GM's seem to do this sort of thing quite a lot.

    Instead of 17...c5 Black should probably have tried 17...Ng5+ and 18...Bxc3 because after 17...c5 18.e5 blocks any attack by the bishop as you pointed out.

    According to the analysis on Chessbase ..Ng5+ hxg5 ..Bxc3 Bd2 "Has the disadvantage that the pawn going from h3 to g4 is actually something White welcomes."

    I tend to agree, but this is still a lot better than what he did play. However, where does black go once these moves have been made? He still has to find moves. His bishop is attacked and has to be moved, so there's a loss of tempo right off the bat...unless he exchanges, but that leaves his black squares weak which just adds to his problems.


    As Black on move 24, I would have preferred trading Knights instead of giving up the bishop for the knight with no apparent compensation since the position is now open instead of closed.


    It's a tricky one. Black would obviously lose a tempo after cxd5, which gives white a free hand. I think at this point exchanges are generally favouring white as that pawn just gets harder to deal with. Capturing with the knight allows a further exchange of blacks Bg7. Whether this is to whites or blacks advantage is unclear to me though. It's the sort of position that really needs an engine to analyse correctly, there are so many possible continuations...

    This analysis aside, what do you think of the opening itself? I think this is a good line to play if you are light on theory. For average players i feel it's much easier to manage this opening than going for the main line KID. I'd happily play the main line as black though, a lot of the ideas (installing a knight on c5, advancing the f/g pawns) can be played almost with consideration of what white is doing. It almost plays itself...
  12. 02 Oct '12 16:32
    Actually Marinkatomb, RJ's comments are quite lucid in that post.

    I ignored them till I saw your response.
    (Of course a diagram here and there would have helped. running up and
    down the page really makes me lose interest quickly.)
    But good suggestions.

    Opening Poster (forgot your name, sorry)
    If I was a 1.d4 player, which thank my stars I'm not.
    I would have found a gambit against the KID.

    So you will have to wait till I grow up and start playing 1.d4 to invent one.
    (Actually I don't why I don't, I always get good positions when I do.
    I have 100's of Alekhine and Marshall games under my belt.)

    Hmmmm..... I'll tell you what I'll pretend I'm a 1.d4 player.
    I'll find or give you (invent one) a playable gambit v the KID.
    Give me 10 minutes.
  13. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    02 Oct '12 18:21
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb
    [i]You say after 11.Re1 Black's white square bishop is a problem because the only safe square is d7, but ideally black would like to keep that free for his c5 knight. I think, in this case there is no need to keep the d7 square available for the retreat of the c5 knight if it is attacked by b4 because he has a better square at e6 to go to. And blacks n ...[text shortened]... e played almost with consideration of what white is doing. It almost plays itself...
    It was on move 11 that you started talking about the need to leave d7 open for the c5 knight. And I pointed out that he had e5. Now it remained a good spot for awhile. But one has to make adjustments for changing positions, which, in hindsight, we can see Black failed to do. Instead he made a couple weak or useless moves, like a6 instead of a5 and Rb8 instead of a5 again. SO when b4 finally came e5 was not nearly as good a spot for the knight as it had been since white had moved f4, etc. I already mentioned my suggestion instead of Black's c5, but you say someone on chessbase doesn't like it.

    The opening may be good, but it looked like to me that Black had gained at least an equal position at one time. Then is when he started playing those dumb moves. I prefer the regular variation for white over this fianchetto variation. But that is just my opinion and I am no master.
  14. 02 Oct '12 19:43
    why find a gambit? kid is dead.
    h3 instead of Nf3 in the main old line.
  15. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    02 Oct '12 20:28
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Actually Marinkatomb, RJ's comments are quite lucid in that post.

    I ignored them till I saw your response.
    (Of course a diagram here and there would have helped. running up and
    down the page really makes me lose interest quickly.)
    But good suggestions.

    Opening Poster (forgot your name, sorry)
    If I was a 1.d4 player, which thank my stars I'm no ...[text shortened]... I'll find or give you (invent one) a playable gambit v the KID.
    Give me 10 minutes.
    What about Cockranes four pawns attack? It's not a gambit but if you want to play aggressively it inspires a tactical position, which most people who play gambits are looking for.

    I only suggested this line as it is easy to play and doesn't really require a massive amount of study.. I found all of RJ's contribution to be helpful. Of course black didn't play perfectly in this game, if he had he wouldn't have lost. Imo, an 1000 player should really be looking to get developed and castled before they start getting involved in anything else. This is a nice and simple way to get a playable middle game without losing the advantage of playing white...