1. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    13814
    02 Nov '08 21:38
    I'll stick with a6.
  2. Joined
    03 Oct '07
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    3273
    02 Nov '08 22:58
    12...Nc4
  3. Subscriberptobler
    Patzer
    Canberra
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    12006
    02 Nov '08 23:441 edit
    12...Nc4

    There is a good survey (and favourable comments) on this line in the New In Chess Yearbook 85, pp. 46-50, which makes me favour it when combined with Edward Dearing's writings on p.124 of "Play the Sicilian Dragon", which together make exactly the point Tony has made.

    Also I am a bit leery of 12...a6. Without having done any analysis on it myself Magnus Carlsen was just smashed in this line in Bilbao by Topalov. This game was written up in the latest New in Chess magazine, and up to the point where black was in serious trouble, it doesn't say any of Magnus' moves were obvious blunders or give any of them a "?". (Hence my leeriness about this line.)
  4. Joined
    24 Aug '07
    Moves
    48477
    03 Nov '08 00:08
    I still haven't voted myself. I was looking at a few lines in Easy Guide To The Dragon. I have that one and The Complete Dragon, among others.



    I know my book is dated.
    It gives 14. ... Bh8 15.g4 which I assume is better for white.
    It also gives 14. ... Rc5 !? .
    Has this one been mentioned yet?

    As for the Carlsen line, I don't know about that one. I'd hate to be pawn and exchange down. What about something simple like 18.Kc1 ? There may be compensation but it isn't very tactical. It's a rather straightforward attack by black. I think RIOT will be able to work his way out and win it.

    I am going to look at my other book now, but I doubt it will help my decision.
  5. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
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    38239
    03 Nov '08 00:373 edits
    12.Kb1 Re8 13.h4 h5 14.Bh6



    The most popular and also probably the strongest continuation.

    14...Nc4

    14...Bh8 is dangerous. White has won all games in practice after 15.g4, see Willemze,J - Molinari,G 1-0, Kodric,M - Malakhov,V 1-0, Rowson,J - Shahade,J 1-0.

    Another try is 14...Qa5. White can continue with the sharp 15.g4 (most critical) or the positional 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.Rhe1, in both cases with advantage, see Seres,L - Aagaard,J 1-0, Zontakh,A - Georgiev,K 0-1.

    The rook sacrifice 14...Bxh6 15.Qxh6 Rxc3 (similar to the line 12.h4 h5 13.Bh6 - B78 - 13.Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Rxc3) here makes no sense, because the move Kb1 is very useful for White in those variations.

    15.Bxc4 Rxc4

    The position is complicated

    16.Bxg7

    16.Nb3 Qc7!? - Nunn,J - Berndt,S ½-½; 16.Nde2 - see Sandipan,C - Motylev,A ½-½.

    16...Kxg7

    The following moves have been tested in practice:

    17.Nde2 Qa5 or 17.Rhe1 Qa5 are about equal, Aseev,K - Nemtsev,I ½-½, Polzin,R - Reschke,S 1-0;

    17.g4 hxg4 18.h5 Rh8 is very sharp. White must be better in the complications, but Black maintains counterchances, see Sandipan,C - Motylev,A ½-½.

    17.Nd5 e5!? is slightly more pleasant for White.
  6. Subscriberptobler
    Patzer
    Canberra
    Joined
    16 Oct '06
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    12006
    03 Nov '08 01:121 edit
    Originally posted by ptobler
    12...Nc4

    There is a good survey (and favourable comments) on this line in the New In Chess Yearbook 85, pp. 46-50, which makes me favour it when combined with Edward Dearing's writings on p.124 of "Play the Sicilian Dragon", which together make exactly the point Tony has made.

    Also I am a bit leery of 12...a6. Without having done any analysis on it mys es were obvious blunders or give any of them a "?". (Hence my leeriness about this line.)
    In fact, it says: "The last few moves looked logical, but all of a sudden it is clear that Black is facing serious problems". You would have to think without clear evidence to the contrary that after that game that 12...a6 is currently in a terrible crisis: its status is currently that of a losing move.
  7. Subscriberptobler
    Patzer
    Canberra
    Joined
    16 Oct '06
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    12006
    03 Nov '08 02:29
    However, both the Deep Fritz 10 and Rybka 3 opening books think that all replies in this position stink for Black. The Rybka 3 opening book gives a success rate of:

    0% for 12...Nc4 (8 games it deemed worthy of inclusion)
    7.9% for 12...Re8 (19 games)
    2.2% for 12...a6 (23 games)

    Of course, the Rybka 3 opening book thinks the Dragon stinks.
  8. Subscriberptobler
    Patzer
    Canberra
    Joined
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    12006
    03 Nov '08 03:021 edit
    Actually, in the survey in New in Chess Yearbook #85, under the title of "An astonishing novelty", Rene Olthof gives the game Matthieu Cornette - Tigran L. Petrosian, Heraklio, 2002, in which Petrosian plays the rarely-played move 12...a5, and as Olthof says, "makes it shine"! We should seriously consider 12...a5.

    1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
    Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Ne5 11. Bb3 Rc8 12. Kb1 a5 13. a4

    [13. h4 a4?! (13...h5; 13...Rc3!?; 13...b5!? 14. Ndb5 a4 15. Ba4 Nc4 with the threat of 16...Qa5) 14. Na4 Ba4 (14...b5 15. Nc3 Nc4 16. Bc4 bc4 17. h5 with the attack) 15. Ba4 Nc4 16. Qe2 Ne3 17. Qe3 Qa5 18. Bb3 Qc5 19. Qd2 h5 20. Qg5 +/- Karjakin-T.L.Petrosian, Internet Blitz 2004; 13. g4 b5]

    13...Nc4 14. Bxc4 Rxc4
    15. b3 Rc8

    {This type of position has been regarded as lacking any prospect for Black for half a century. Petrosian apparently disagrees!}

    16. g4

    [16. Ndb5; 16. Ncb5 e5 17. Ne2 Bb5 18. ab5 d5 19. ed5 a4 with the attack Arencibia-Hoffman, Santa Clara, 1994]

    16...Qc7

    [Far less common than the alternatives 16...Bc6, 16...Be6 and 16...h5]

    17. Ndb5

    [>= 17. Ncb5 Qd8 (17...Qb8 18. Qa5 d5 19. g5 Nh5 20. ed5 Qe5 21. Rhe1+- Golubev) 18. h4 h5 19. gh5 Nh5 +/=]

    17...Nxe4

    {An astonishing novelty!}

    18. Nxe4

    [18. Nc7 Nc3 19. Kc1 Rc7 Black has a draw in hand; 18. fe4 Bc3 19. Nc7 Bd2 20. Rd2 Rc7 21. g5 =/+]

    18...Bxb5 19. axb5 d5

    [19...a4!? (T.L. Petrosian) 20. Rhe1 ab3 21. cb3 d5 22.Nc5 d4 23. Bd4 Rfd8 24. Qf2 Rd4 25.Rd4 Bd4 26. Qd4 Qc5 27. Qc5 Rc5 28. Re7 Rb5=]

    20. Nf2 a4 21. b6
    Qc6 22. Rc1 axb3 23. c3 Ra8 24. Nd3 Qc4 25. Nb4 Qxb4 0-1
  9. Joined
    18 Sep '08
    Moves
    1480
    03 Nov '08 05:041 edit
    Originally posted by ptobler
    12...Nc4

    There is a good survey (and favourable comments) on this line in the New In Chess Yearbook 85, pp. 46-50, which makes me favour it when combined with Edward Dearing's writings on p.124 of "Play the Sicilian Dragon", which together make exactly the point Tony has made.

    Also I am a bit leery of 12...a6. Without having done any analysis on it mys es were obvious blunders or give any of them a "?". (Hence my leeriness about this line.)
    Actually Carlsen had plenty of room for improvement. His 21st move was a slip and so was his 23? i think, where Rc8 was required.

    I vote for a6.
  10. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    03 Nov '08 09:376 edits
    Originally posted by ptobler
    Actually, in the survey in New in Chess Yearbook #85, under the title of "An astonishing novelty", Rene Olthof gives the game Matthieu Cornette - Tigran L. Petrosian, Heraklio, 2002, in which Petrosian plays the rarely-played move 12...a5, and as Olthof says, "makes it shine"! We should seriously consider 12...a5.

    1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 ...[text shortened]... 28. Re7 Rb5=]

    20. Nf2 a4 21. b6
    Qc6 22. Rc1 axb3 23. c3 Ra8 24. Nd3 Qc4 25. Nb4 Qxb4 0-1
    12...a5

    As usual such a pawn advance enables White to blockade the queenside after 13.a4. White keeps a strategical advantage and later can either play for a kingside attack (Pavlovic,M - Ballmann,M 1-0), or play in the centre and use the b5-square for a knight (Lanka,Z - Bindrich,O 1-0)

  11. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
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    14606
    03 Nov '08 10:19
    ...Nc4 anceefour ansexfour ansexfor andsexforall well 12. ...Nc4
  12. Joined
    16 Dec '04
    Moves
    56692
    04 Nov '08 01:00
    12...Nc4
  13. Donation!~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    Your Kingside
    Joined
    28 Sep '01
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    40665
    04 Nov '08 01:06
    I guess I'll throw my ballot in the 12...Nc4 bin, since I don't want ...Re8 to win! 😀
  14. Joined
    24 Aug '07
    Moves
    48477
    04 Nov '08 01:48
    12. ... Nc4
  15. Standard memberrandolph
    the walrus
    an English garden
    Joined
    15 Jan '08
    Moves
    32836
    04 Nov '08 05:08
    Nc4
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