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  1. 21 Mar '09 17:13
    This is the continuation to Thread 109755.

    Our 26. ... Kh7 was met by 27.Rd8.

  2. 21 Mar '09 17:18
    I'm not sure we have covered this exact position. If white had played d6 (and we exd6) before Rd8, Ba4 was a suggestion.

    Does Ba4 still work here?
  3. 21 Mar '09 18:30 / 1 edit
    I like Nxd5 here.

    If Rxd7 then Nxe3 his knight is still pinned and our knight is threatening both his rook or pawn with check, with his knight still pinned and we'll have three pieces attacking to d4 square to his two defending.
  4. 21 Mar '09 20:39 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I like Nxd5 here.

    If Rxd7 then Nxe3 his knight is still pinned and our knight is threatening both his rook or pawn with check, with his knight still pinned and we'll have three pieces attacking to d4 square to his two defending.
    27... Nxd5 28.Bg1 Nc3 29.Re1 Ba4 30.Rxe7 Rb4 31.Re1 Nb5 32.c3 Nxc3 33.Rc8 Nb5 34.Rd8 draw

    This was from a much earlier thread, though, admittedly, I haven't looked at this line in some time now.

    So initially I'll go with the Nxd5, pending further analysis.

    Edit: This line is quite bad for white actually; I wonder why I thought it was a draw? Looks like 33.a3 is the move to draw.

    One has to wonder what PAWN RIOT did to get in such a tough position... perhaps it was 1.e4
  5. 21 Mar '09 20:49 / 1 edit
    27...Ba4 or Bf5 with the same idea has to be considered also.

    My initial feelings are that Bf5 should be more accurate as it tickles b1.

    Edit: I'm really expecting TONY or streetfighter to show the win at this point.

    Nxd5 followed by Nc3 is looking very tasty though.
  6. 21 Mar '09 21:13 / 6 edits
    Never mind, I'll look more at what you posted.

    Oops, never mind. I was thinking Bc1.

    OK, I just need to work this out on a board.
  7. 21 Mar '09 21:46 / 4 edits
    OK, I have two lines for y'all. One is very forced (pretty much the line from above starting 27...Nxd5) so PAWN RIOT has less of a chance to make a mistake (he will have 'only' moves), but we can analyze it pretty far. The other (starting 27...Bf5) and we can end up with three pieces against two rooks. Which seems fun, but gives us plenty of room for error. Here they are:

    27...Nxd5 28.Bf2(28.Bg1 was given above, but Bf2 covers those weak pawns. Either one seems to lead to pretty much the same position.) 28...Nc3 29.Re1 Ba4 (capturing on d4 doesn't work here, and Bf4 allows Nxf4 (which may not be that great for white, but we can just limit his options with Ba4) 30.Rxe7 Rb4 (threatening mate) 31.Re1 Nb5 (threatening d4) 32.c3 Nxc3 33.a3 Rb7 and I think we can keep the white king boxed in. However, I don't see how to make progress.

    27...Bf5 28.Kb2 (covering c2) 28...Nb5(hitting d4) 29.Kb3 Rxd4 30.Bxd4 Nxd4+ 31.Kc4 and then I'm going to bet Nxf3 is best with all sorts of pawns falling. I think this endgame will be trickiest for both sides.

    So, thats my input for now. Hope to hear from y'all soon.

    Edit: On a further note, in the second line we should try to figure out if we can stop the d-pawn from queening, perhaps by running with our h-pawn. I keep winning the endgame with black, but maybe I'm just biased.

    Another edit: I can't seem to make progress against 32.Re8 in the second line. I'm betting drawn, but some variations it's very difficult to keep both rooks off the last rank.

    Another edit: The trick is to see if we can scoot out of the corner and activate our king, then our three pieces should trump the two rooks. But it seems he can just land one or both rooks on the last rank and keep our king boxed in. We aren't without some tricky forks and skewers though.
  8. 22 Mar '09 09:15
    Originally posted by ResigningSoon
    OK, I have two lines for y'all. One is very forced (pretty much the line from above starting 27...Nxd5) so PAWN RIOT has less of a chance to make a mistake (he will have 'only' moves), but we can analyze it pretty far. The other (starting 27...Bf5) and we can end up with three pieces against two rooks. Which seems fun, but gives us plenty of room fo ...[text shortened]... and keep our king boxed in. We aren't without some tricky forks and skewers though.
    I thought 2 rooks were worth more than 3 pieces? Also I think rooks are better for pushing pawns.
  9. 22 Mar '09 10:24
    Originally posted by Uries
    I thought 2 rooks were worth more than 3 pieces? Also I think rooks are better for pushing pawns.
    You think? This ending seems much more difficult for white.

    I have 32.Re8 Bxc2 33.Rc1 Ne5+ when a normal king move like Kd4 gets hit by Nd3+. With his king in the open I think we'll have our chances anyway.
  10. 22 Mar '09 10:44 / 4 edits
    Hi again. I've found this game which shows the imbalance(three pieces for two rooks), but black manages to lose. It's amazing how similar to our game it is.



    Edit: In fact, I want to say I just saw chucky play this defence against Toppy?(maybe) at the Amber chess tournament.

    And this from wikipedia:
    Two rooks versus three minor pieces: normally a draw (Hooper 1970:4)
    (This was for pawnless endgames though)
    With the source being: Hooper, David (1970), A Pocket Guide to Chess Endgames, Bell & Hyman, ISBN 0-7135-1761-1
  11. 22 Mar '09 13:59
    Originally posted by ResigningSoon
    OK, I have two lines for y'all. One is very forced (pretty much the line from above starting 27...Nxd5) so PAWN RIOT has less of a chance to make a mistake (he will have 'only' moves), but we can analyze it pretty far. The other (starting 27...Bf5) and we can end up with three pieces against two rooks. Which seems fun, but gives us plenty of room fo ...[text shortened]... and keep our king boxed in. We aren't without some tricky forks and skewers though.
    My gut feeling is this is a draw. It certainly was before Rd8 i think, the thing is to work out if Rd8 is a drawing line, or loss for white. I think white has blown his winning chances barring a slip up from us.

    I think if we get into a tricky endgame we could slip up, he is surely better than us?! Better than me, thats for sure.

    Anyway, Bf5, wouldn't white reply with that old trick d6 exd6, the not Kb2 (keeping black bishop pin on knight) but Kb1.

    Then it gets far too complicated again for me to be able to look into properly right now. Perhaps lines in this have been discussed before.

    Bf5 is my instinct - but we should look into each line for each move as far as possible to know where we really stand.
  12. 22 Mar '09 15:12
    Originally posted by mazattack
    My gut feeling is this is a draw. It certainly was before Rd8 i think, the thing is to work out if Rd8 is a drawing line, or loss for white. I think white has blown his winning chances barring a slip up from us.

    I think if we get into a tricky endgame we could slip up, he is surely better than us?! Better than me, thats for sure.

    Anyway, Bf5, would ...[text shortened]... t we should look into each line for each move as far as possible to know where we really stand.
    yes, yes, perhaps you're right. 27...Bf5 28.d6 exd6 29.Kb1 Nb5 30.Nxb5 Bxc2+ 31.Kc1 Ba4+ recovers the piece, but the endgame looks more difficult for us. Maybe it's time to bail out with 27.Nxd5
  13. 22 Mar '09 15:33
    Yes that endgame does look lost in actual fact to me. Purely because our a and f pawns are so weak looking to me. We may be able to keep material level and not drop pawns but at the cost probably of the endgame itself. Bf5 possibility if someone can find lines, however maybe Ba4 (going to end up same as Bf5?) or Nxd5 are the best moves.

    I suppose we should now look at Nxd5
  14. 22 Mar '09 15:44
    Incidentally, I don't think this is a drawn game anymore. From past analysis I did not think Rd8 would be played and thought Rb7 instead (this is from memory, may be getting this all wrong) looked to be a dead draw.

    Rd8 looks too unblanaced, but who is it balanced in favour of?

    I suppose Nxd5 Bg1 (if Bf2 we play Nc3 and if Rxd7? Nxd1 threatens bishop) Nb6 to support bishop and avoid his rook coming into play on the d-file with our knight d5 pin

    What then?

    We should note here our weaknesses again - a, e and f pawns. So we need to look into lines ,however keep in mind that if he picks these off later on our endgame is doomed. So we need to look into lines we think we can draw/win with this weakness in mind. Don't give him time to pick them off, or do anything to risk it. I genuinly think this will be the make or break point for us.
  15. Standard member zozozozo
    Thread Killing Chimp
    22 Mar '09 15:52
    Originally posted by mazattack
    Incidentally, I don't think this is a drawn game anymore. From past analysis I did not think Rd8 would be played and thought Rb7 instead (this is from memory, may be getting this all wrong) looked to be a dead draw.

    Rd8 looks too unblanaced, but who is it balanced in favour of?

    I suppose Nxd5 Bg1 (if Bf2 we play Nc3 and if Rxd7? Nxd1 threatens bisho ...[text shortened]... off, or do anything to risk it. I genuinly think this will be the make or break point for us.
    can i play?
    getting the pawn with the knight is a material win, dont think, do:p