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  1. 03 May '09 17:55
    This is a continuation of Thread 111605.

    Our 29. ... Rb4 was answered by 30. Nb3.

    Here is the position:

  2. Standard member ptobler
    Patzer
    03 May '09 21:56
    I vote 30...Ne4+ for the time being, pending deeper analysis
  3. 03 May '09 22:22
    Just a thought... how about, ...a5
  4. 03 May '09 22:33
    Originally posted by ChessJester
    Just a thought... how about, ...a5
    Rxd7! then he has enough defence of d4 to play Bd4 too

    Very bad move for us!! i agree, Ne4 looks best right now, but, i haven't looked all that much apart from the a5 move.
  5. 03 May '09 23:01 / 2 edits
    After a second thought, my idea was bad. I like Ne4 at this point.
  6. 03 May '09 23:12
    I don't know how to make the current position display (without clicking last). Apparently, something has been changed on the site.

    Here is the position now (with us to move):

  7. 03 May '09 23:49
    I agree with Ne4, it may win the exchange back, but what about our pawn....
  8. 05 May '09 09:00
    The analysis of Ne4+ and other moves are in the previous thread for those interested. There are some interesting options(Ra4?). I think the last of the discussion was on the endgame after Ne4. I have faith in our position(the rook endgame is a lot more exciting than I gave it credit for) and I'll vote for Ne4+.
  9. 05 May '09 10:05 / 4 edits
    I am not fully aware of all options, but what about Ra4? it seems that we can do that, and then come back to the Ne4 line, with one pawn more for us, and a slightly better situation.
    More generally, it seems a pretty good idea to use, before going to the ending, the fact that the king is threatened by many mate patterns... ( I don't know the english word for this: "battery" maybe?)

    For instance:

    30. ... Ra4 31. Nc1 (forced to avoid mate EDIT: NOT FORCED,) Nxa2+

    then various possibilities:

    two bad ones.
    - 32. Bd4 is terrible for white, after: 32. ... Nxc1+ 33. Kb1 (or b2) and then bad things for white, such as A. taking d4 with rook or Bishop, and B. if he played Kb1 mate threats, for instance 33. ... Bxd4; 34. Kxc1 Ra1++)

    - 32. c3 and then Nc3+ back to his place with two pawns and no tempo loss.

    then the most likely move:
    - 32. Kb1 and then, 32. ... Nc3+ back where it was with one pawn more and no tempo loss!, and we can do the Ne4 thing, after he plays either 33. Ka1 or 33. Kb2.
    if he plays 33. Ka1, the only difference is we have a Ra4 rook instead of a Rb4 rook. If he plays 33.Kb2, we can even play 33. ... Rb4+ to come back exactly to the same position, with only the a pawn down.

    notice his Knight is in a very poor position (c1). This might eventually go in even worse positions and mates, since his King is very very closed in his little corner.

    So by now I would vote 30. ... Ra4, because it is at least exactly as Ne4, except that we have the white a pawn, and make his situation worse (Nc1). Waiting for comments!
  10. 05 May '09 10:16
    Wasn't the expected response from past threads Ra4 Kb2?

    This is from memory, and i haven't looked into the continuations yet. Will do!
  11. 05 May '09 10:25
    damn! a lot of sweat for this... I missed Kb2.
    Sorry, don't read my previous post
  12. 05 May '09 11:20 / 2 edits
    So finally, I didn't give up analysis, and I would say I prefer Ra4, still, because we can get one pawn more, put back our White bishop in the attack, and we avoid to liquidate everything towards drawish endings.

    30. ... Ra4 31. Kb2 (much better than the bad Nc1 that I mentioned before).

    Then two possibilities (if we just play Ne4 then, it does not really makes sense, we just improved a bit his situation, so I do not mention this):

    31 (A). ... Rxa2+ 32. Kc1
    31 (B) ... Nxa2+ 32. Be4 and our situation is pretty bad.

    So (A) is the solution if we chose 30. ... Ra4.

    I see then three average,possible, moves.

    32. the expected 32. ... Bf5 threatening c2.
    and the two other possible moves (since we have to move our white bishop): 32. ...Be6 attacking the Knight,
    32. ... Ba4 attacking the Knight, but also threatening the c2 pawn, whenever he moves the Knight.
    what maybe expected is B d4 to exchange our dear black bishop. and going to soso ending.

    so it might be worth considering the more interesting
    32. Bc5, preparing Ne2+. at least, he cannot play Bd4 anymore...

    Here, having a positional look at the situation (and I know it is not enough), I think it is good : we have one bishop and a pawn for one rook, and definitely a more offensive position. It is also more funny than the drawish Ne4 (though it definitely needs more investigation). and his plan is not clear at all (he has to liquidate, but how will he do that??). Finally, by going on the fight, we win the psychological battle .
  13. 05 May '09 11:55
    What about Ra4 Kb2 Ne4+

    Rd4 (forced) Nxf2
    R8xd7 Bxd4+
    Nxd4 and then, like i said a few threads ago - our weak a7 and e7 pawns could be the end of us. Is this still drawn?

    Even better for us seems, instead of Bxd4+ immediately, Nd1+ Kc1 and we draw his king back to the first rank and after Bxd4 Nxd4 Ne3 we look far better placed. I think is a more certain draw then Bxd4 immediately. In fact this must have been anaylsed before as it feels vaguely familiar.

    Following your line, we allow in each continuation after

    Ra4 Kb2 Rxa2 Kc1 whatever we play, allows Bd4, attacking the bishop and knight and i think our initiative is over.

    Which seems to me to say, after Ra4 Ne4+ needs to be played anyway to draw. So, what does Ra4 achieve before playing Ne4+? and, is Ne4+ first any better, i.e does it give us winning chances?

    I'm still of the opinion it is a dead draw, but, is there anything wrong with my analysis? I think either Ra4 Kb2 Ne4+ drawing, or, Ne4+ either darwing or playing for a win?

    I can't remember lines but i think some were of the opinion we had lines after Ne4+ where we were winning potentially.
  14. 05 May '09 12:04
    I take back where I was:

    after 32. ... Bb5


    I. 33. Bd4, Ne2+

    - 34. Rxe2 Bxe2 35. Bxg7 Kxg7 and the ending is at first glance a win for us (Bishop and one pawn against Knight).
    - 34. Kd1 Nxd4 35. Nxd4 Ra1++
    - 34. Kb1 is more complicated... many unclear things.

    II. 33 Nd4 (more likely to happen):

    only possibility I think:
    - 33 ... Ba4 and we have an ok position... if he comes back to Nb3 we just gained one tempo as compared to 32. ... Ba4. if he does not... we might consider to push e5 (finally) and then e4 to give more space to our knight...

    OK I stop for today, I promise...
  15. 05 May '09 12:12
    OK thanks for the reply! I am just exploring the Ra4 way

    I don't get why Rd4 is forced in your previous thread. Could you explain? and also, Is Bd4 really possible after Bb5? cause Ne2+ seems pretty interesting...

    But I agree, there is no definite reason to prefer Ra4 by now...