PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 30

I finally come back a bit earlier, to make much I did not miss something.

Earlier in the game, it is not clear for me why, with the Ra4 line, after the interesting Nd1
It is clear that Kx d1 is not a good idea, because of Bf2 (as you mentioned), but Rxd4 is still possible, no? it only mean we exchange rooks. But I agree it seems somewhat inferior, due to the fact his rook is somewhat better.

So the most likely is still that we come to 35.Nxd4 Ne3
Then, what I want to make sure is that 36. is c3 for whites.
Another possibility would be
- 36. Rxe7, Rxd4 37. Rxe3, Rxh4. so not convincing for whites.
- or 36. Kb2, or Kd2 but it seems to be nothing but a waste of time: after Ng2 especially…
- 36. Nc6 seems pretty bad too. And bringing back the Knight would not make any sense.

So my previous analysis is not only science fiction 
And I tend to confirm that Ra4 is slightly, but significantly better.
with the Ne4 line, we cannot put the rook on the sixth rank, while at the same time preventing Rxe7 (since we have a bad Knight). moreover our Knight does not threatens h4 by any mean h4 is its blind spot). so, we cannot take the benefits of 36. Ra6.


In fact Ra6 was not good at all! , because of 37. Rxe7 Nd5 Rxf7+...

so 36. c3 Cf5 seems the more convincing...
37. Cxf5 gxf5 and it will be a wild ending.

and the main line to study is for me: 30.... Ra4 31. Kb2 Ne4+ 32. R2d4 Nxf2 33. Rxd7 Nd1!! (definitely a good finding from RS!) 34. Kc1 Bxd4 35. Nd4 Nf3 36. c3 Cf5 37. Cxf5 gxf5 38. Rxe7

all other lines I studied seemed worse than this... but of course it is hard to be very sure...
and then two possibilities for black:

- the more quiet and logical Kg6. that I mentioned earlier. leads to undeterminate result, but rather negative, I would say...

- the hot and funny Rxh4?!
leading to 39. Rxf7+ Kg6 40. Ra7 and there is an interesting 40. ... a4+ to examine for a very hot finish ... because white cannot really take: 41. Rxa4 Rxa4 42. Kxa4 h4 and we promote first, get the f3 pawn at least, and it seems like a good draw... (which would really make me happy!)

and if the rook do not take, the King comes back... and the fight goes on, with underteminate results : 41. Kc2 Rc4 42. Rh7 ... but we have a correct position...

instead of Rxf7+ white can also play c4, and then we choose which way we prefer...

Damn I feel pretty much like a chess addict tonight…

CORRECTION OF THE PREVIOUS POST (I refer to wrong positions).

Earlier in the game, it is not clear for me why, with the Ra4 line, after the interesting Nd1
It is clear that Kx d1 is not a good idea, because of Bf2 (as you mentioned), but Rxd4 is still possible, no? it only mean we exchange rooks. But I agree it seems somewhat inferior, due to the fact his rook is somewhat better.

So the most likely is still that we come to 35.Nxd4 Ne3
Then, what I want to make sure is that 36. is c3 for whites.
Another possibility would be
- 36. Rxe7, Rxd4 37. Rxe3, Rxh4. so not convincing for whites.
- or 36. Kb2, or Kd2 but it seems to be nothing but a waste of time: after Ng2 especially…
- 36. Nc6 seems pretty bad too. And bringing back the Knight would not make any sense.

So my previous analysis is not only science fiction 
And I tend to confirm that Ra4 is slightly, but significantly better.
with the Ne4 line, we cannot put the rook on the sixth rank, while at the same time preventing Rxe7 (since we have a bad Knight). moreover our Knight does not threatens h4 by any mean h4 is its blind spot). so, we cannot take the benefits of 36. Ra6.


In fact Ra6 was not good at all! , because of 37. Rxe7 Nd5 Rxf7+...

so 36. c3 Cf5 seems the more convincing...
37. Cxf5 gxf5 and it will be a wild ending.

and the main line to study is for me: 30.... Ra4 31. Kb2 Ne4+ 32. R2d4 Nxf2 33. Rxd7 Nd1!! (definitely a good finding from RS!) 34. Kc1 Bxd4 35. Nd4 Nf3 36. c3 Cf5 37. Cxf5 gxf5 38. Rxe7 Kg6 39. Kb2 ...

and then we have to compare between the second and the third of my FENs in the previous page...
39 . ... a5 or 39. Rxh4?
which way do you prefer to loose? 🙂

all other lines I studied seemed worse than this... but of course it is hard to be very sure...

My general feeling being that if we get a draw, that will be very nice...


Damn I feel pretty much like a chess addict tonight…

Hi Macpo, that's a lot of good work you've done there, and Resigning Soon too! (I'll forgive Macpo overlooking that ...Nd1+ was MY recommendation 😛)

However, I don't immediately see why the position after 39...Rxh4 is lost for us?! I think white has to be just as careful as black in this ending after, e.g. 40.Rxa7 Rf4 when we run the h-pawn, probably against the a-pawn.

30...Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+ 32. Rd4 Nxf2 33. R8xd7 Nd1+ 34. Kc1 Bxd4 35. Nxd4 Ne3 36. c3 Nf5 37. Nxf5 gxf5 38. Rxe7 Kg6 39. Kb2 a5 40. Kb3 Rxh4 41. c4 Rh1 42. f4 h4 43.c5 Rc1 44. Re8(Rc7 seems far too passive) Kh5



...and you think we're worse?

Our opponent will find improvements though, there is no doubt, but so will we!

Well I agree it is not so obvious. and anyway it looks better than the Ne4 line, doesn't it? So Ra4 would be the move... I will have a look at your line later!
and sorry street fighter: Nd1 was a your very good idea! definitely deserving the brilliancy prize🙂

Bump

I just checked over ResigningSoon's analysis, and it looks pretty good. There are some deviations a couple of different places, but if his line is best, then we're completely winning after ...Ra4. That rook ending looks terrible for White. I couldn't defend it while looking at it rather briefly at work. The c-pawn isn't nearly as good as the h-pawn. White's best chance is probably to hunt the f-pawn with Rf8 or Re7, but I doubt if it's good enough to save this baby. We're takin him down! 😀

I'm changing my vote to ...Ra4

It looks like Ra4 is where we're headed. I'll join the ride. Ra4 for me too.

Well in macpo's line white can play 37.Kb2 Nxh4 38.Rxe7 Kg7 39.Ne6+ Kg8 40.Re8+ Kh7 41.Re7 DRAWN. Now I know most of you would be ecstatic for a draw but that's not as glorious as winning! And it seems that 30...Ne4+ immediately where follows 31.Rd4 Nxf2 32.Rxd7 Bxd4+ 33.Nxd4 Rc4 34.Kb2 and now we have a couple options here in 34...Nd1+ and 34....e5. I propose 34...e5 as 34....Nd1+ will put us on the defensive and a difficult defense at that. My line after 34...e5 is 35.Ne6 Kg8 puts on back in the same spot which is a draw.... So come on people spot something brilliant!

maybe 33...Nd1+ doesn't deserve a !! It seems an obvious move and those aren't always the best! How about 33...Kg8! 34.c3 Bxd4 35.Nxd4 Nd3+ 36.Kc2 Nc5 37.Rc7 Rxa2+ I guess we'll have to see when we get there if the line before this move holds up.

I vote 30. ...Ra4 and congrats big time Resigning Soon, I never saw it!

Oh yes I forgot.

I also vote ...Ra4.

The main deviations I can see from Resigning post are (let's say this is a detailled sum up)


=====> 30...Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+ 32. Rd4 Nxf2 33. R8xd7 Nd1+ 34. Kc1 Bxd4 35. Nxd4

- here White can take with the Rook, but this is not very convincing: after something like :
35. Rxd4 Rxd4 36. Nxd4 Ne3
White cannot prevent the loss of a pawn:
- 37. f4 (to avoid Ng2 threatening h3). 37. ... Ng2 and f4 cannot be defended.
- or 37 Kd2 Ng2 and h4 cannot be defended.

so Nxd4 seems better.

====> then 35. ... Ne3 the best move no doubt... actually, Nf2 wouldn't make any sense, since the objective was precisely to bring the Knight on e3...

=====> 36. c3 here, I think there might be a better move than c3. c3 is OK, but with 36. Kb2 I think white gain one tempo (due to the fact that then he will not play c3 and then c4, but c4 straight.
that would be:

36. after for instance: 36. Kb2 Nf5 37. Nxf5 gxf5 38. Rxe7 Kg6 39. Kb3 Rxh4, white can play c4 at the 40th move... instead of the 41st.

EDIT: I just read my previous post, and after Kb2, I had suggested we blacks could play Ng2, but this is finally not very good for us I think. But still I mention it to make thinks clear.

36. Kb2 Ng2 37. Kb3 Ra6 (and here we find back what I suggested in one of my posts) 38. Rxe7 Kg7 and here white can play 39. Re4 (there is no f5 pawn...) protecting h4.

in anycase, this will be our choice, so it does not invalidate the whole line. 36. Kb2 Nf5 still holds!

the other alternative to c3 is 36. Rxe7 Rxd4 37. Rxe3 Rxh4. and the situation is between draw and win for us, I would say. our pawn will promote faster, and our rook can go quickly on the c file.

So i would expect Kb2 from Whites (of course to the condition that he considers seriously the following Nf5! because if he misses that, the most likely is c3... and then we are better. actually, in that situation, a5 wouldn't be so obvious, we may just give it up to gain one tempo..., since he will not bring his a pawn anywhere).

36. ... Nf5 still seems the best move. I tried everything else I think in my previous posts, without results...

=====> 37. Nxf5

Tomtom suggested Kb2 here (after 36. c3), but the white knight on d4 is attacked twice, so white has to do something about it... so I think nxf5 is pretty much necessary. other solutions imply the loss of h4 for nothing.

=====> 37. gxf5 necessary.

=====> 38. Rxe7
is the more logical move. Actually, the only other thing I can think of is Kb3, to increase c4 speed. but it doesn't so much, since Rxe7 also win one tempo, by threatening f7.
so Kb3 would be a mere transposition I think.
(38. Kb3 Rxh4 39. Rxe7 Kg6. 40. c4 ... )

=====> 38. ... Kg6
pretty necessary.

=====> 39. Kb3 here, in RS line, here we should play 39. Kb2 a5. but if we go on supposing 36. Kb2 instead of 36. c3 (as I think is slightly better for white), white has some new opportunity: 39. Kb3. the most logical move... that mean we cannot save the a pawn anymore...

=====> 39. ... Rxh4 40. c4 Rook xh4 is logical, and then two possibilities for white: either Rx a7, or c4. c4 would be more powerful I guess.
to ease the comparison with RS, I make this hypothesis.
and then we come back to RS line, one move earlier... the difference are: White didn't do c3 and c4 but c4 straight, and black didn't move a7 to a5. So a bit better than expected for white, but not even sure, since it is not obvious that Rxa7 is good move. in which case, it's back to our situation.

here is the position.

BLACK TO PLAY


then, might follow RS line, one move earlier :


=====> 40. ... Rh1 41. f4 h4 42.c5 Rc1
pretty logical. at any time, Rxa7 should be considered though.

=====> and here, instead of Re8, maybe Rxa7...
44. Rxa7 h3... but white is pretty bad. so Re8? but not so convincing. It seems pretty good to us.


SO i vote Ra4, since Ne4 leads to dirty things on our seventh rank!

EDIT : and I should tell you, I am very happy to play Ra4, for I fell in love with it a long time ago (at that time, it was for very bad reasons, though! but you know, that's love ...)

Originally posted by Macpo
=====> 37. Nxf5

Tomtom suggested Kb2 here (after 36. c3), but the white knight on d4 is attacked twice, so white has to do something about it... so I think nxf5 is pretty much necessary. other solutions imply the loss of h4 for nothing.

Position after 37.Kb2



Now the night on d4 is attacked twice but also defended twice so 37...Rxd4 doesn't even come in to consideration. 37....Nxd4 38.cxd4 and now that the nights are off we can see that white has all the basic advantages the basic endgames tell us. He has a rook on the seventh that is keeping our king passive while his king will be able to become active... And our rook is stuck defending the a pawn but appearances can be decieving as you can see after 38...e5! Which sets a sort of trap if it can be called that with 39.dxe5? Kg8! 40.Kb3 Rxh4 41.Rxa7 Rf4! And chances look good for us but we cannot assume that he will make such mistakes! Instead he will play 39.Rxf7+ Kg8 40.Rd8+ Kg7 41.Rd7 and a draw. My point is that 37.Kb2 pretty much guarantees white a draw.

So it follows that if the line resigningsoon gives is indeed a win for us then we should expect white to see that and play for the draw which is why I propose 33...Kg8! Instead of 33...Nd1+

Originally posted by tomtom232
Position after 37.Kb2

[fen]8/p2Rpp1k/6p1/5nPp/r2N3P/2P2P2/PK6[/fen]

Now the night on d4 is attacked twice but also defended twice so 37...Rxd4 doesn't even come in to consideration. 37....Nxd4 38.cxd4 and now that the nights are off we can see that white has all the basic advantages the basic endgames tell us. He has a rook on the seventh that is kee ...[text shortened]... t white to see that and play for the draw which is why I propose 33...Kg8! Instead of 33...Nd1+

Sorry! Thanks for remarking! you are definitely right! I missed that...

but here, what about 37. ... Nxh4 ?

it looks pretty ok for us, doesn't it?