Originally posted by paultopiaI'm not sure it wastes a tempo; after all White has made two pawn moves. After 3 Nc3, if the Black Queen goes to a5 each side has developed one piece. Is a5 a good spot for the Queen? I generally don't think so, but it's not the only defense where it's deployed out there (Cambridge Springs to the Queen's Gambit comes to mind) so who knows?
It wastes a tempo on the spot.
Whatever the expert analysis of it, I hate playing against it! Usually whoever plays it is well-versed in it and it is unfamiliar to most players. I played a speed chess game on another site, got into an Icelandic Gambit (which I had never heard of) and got completely crushed. So if you don't mind your Queen roaming around a bit, go ahead and play it (just not against me, please).
My problem with the main line at least is that it puts the queen somewhere where it isn't under immediate threat, but, on the other hand, where it isn't very useful. White's pieces, on the other hand, are developed to more useful places.
The 2. ... Nf6 version of the scandinavian helps with this.
Originally posted by deathbypawnThere's also another main-line in the Scandinavian, though less played, it has it's points... 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 - I've been experimenting with this as well a bit lately, though most of the time I take with the queen. This other line tends to develop into a completely different sort of a game. For example, if white defends the pawn with 3.c4, black can offer a gambit by either c6 or e6 - gaining a tempo, and getting good development. Certainly interesting... [edit: I see that Paultopia beat me to the punch here...]
What are some pros and cons to the scandinavian defense. That is
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5
Pro: queen takes control of the center
Con: bring queen out to early
Any more pros and cons would be appreciated
The thing I like about the Scandinavian is that it let's black dictate to a large extent how the game evolves - black determines where the game goes and white doesn't have THAT many ways to mix things up early on. Also, as mentioned already, many opponent's may not be that familiar with it, so often you'll have the advantage of being on familiar ground. Most of all, it's principle-braking fun! 🙂
Against lower rated opponents who are not familiar with it at all, the game can go very well for black - especially if white tries to defend the e-pawn instead of 2.exd5. For example, in "live" chess I must have played at least a half a dozen games that went something like: 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3? d4 3.Nd5 e5 4.Bc4?! c6! - and the knight has nowhere to run. Or 1.e4 d5 2.d3? dxe4 3.dxe4 Qxd1 4.Kxd1 - and now the white king is in an unenviable position, stranded in the center.
But against opponent's who know what they are doing, it's still quite a respectable, active defense for black - and not at all shaky, as one might suspect.
After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 black can also retreat the queen back to d1 or move it to d2, but I'm not too familiar with these lines - Qd1 just looks a bit silly to me (can't help it). I tried Qd2 early on when I adopted the Scandinavian, but didn't like it at all. Qa5 is more to my liking. It's a good, active post for the queen, it surveys the fifth rank and pins the white knight if the d-pawn moves. Also, it can easily retreat if necessary - for example to b6 where it aims at b2 and f2.
-Jarno
I play the 2...Nf6 (Portuguese) line all the time, but I'm a fan of gambits. the 2...Qxd5 (main line Centre Counter) lines don't appeal to me at all, as White or Black, but as another poster said, either continuation after 1.e4 d5 has the basic appeal for black in that it takes control of the character of the game from the start. It's also not terrible in that 1.d5 is perhaps the most direct way of challenging white for control of the center, and so at least obeys some classical principles.
The queen isn't great afer 2...Qxd5 3.Nc3, there just isn't a great square for her yet, in my opinion. However, Anand has used the Centre Counter himself, so what do I know?
Definitely give the 2...Nf6 lines a spin, though. The big ride is the Icelandic Gambit: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6, 3.c4 e6 4.dxe6 Bxe6. For the pawn black has a lead in development that can result in unexpected problems for white, often including barn-storming attacks down the center at white's uncastled king. Of course, with careful play, white can ride out the storm or even knock the wind right out of black's attack, but I do mean careful. You want someting that gives white problems? This is the way to go. You want something 100% sound that will lead to equality against top-rateds? The Portuguese is probably not for you.
Pros:
- It forces White out of his plan on move #1
- Bronstein and Larsen liked it
- You get an unbalanced pawn structure, which provides winning chances for both sides
- It has a nice hypermodern flavor to it, esp the Qd8 variations
Cons:
- If you don't play accurately you can get blown off the board pretty fast, e.g., 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.d3 c6 6.Bd2 Bg4 7.f3 Bh5 8.Qe2 Nbd7 9.g4 Bg6 10.f4 h6 11.f5 Bh7 12.Nb5 1-0 ...
- If White wants to, he can play d4!? and you're in a Blackmar-Diemer, which is not much fun. (But you can respond e6 and play the French...I wonder if that's ever really happened... 🙂 )
Originally posted by lloydkYep,it has actually happened.I've fallen victim to it twice.In my mind it went something like this: Let's play some chess! 🙂 1.e4,d5 Oh bugger,the scandinavian,I don't do well against that at all...thinking for 2-3 minutes.....oh,sod it,I'll go 2.d4 and we play Blackmar-Diemer,I don't know much about it but at least he doesn't get his scandinavian. 2.d4,e6 HUH??.......CRAP!THIS IS FRENCH NOW!I'm even more terrible at that then at the scandinavian!......0-1 😞
- If White wants to, he can play d4!? and you're in a Blackmar-Diemer, which is not much fun. (But you can respond e6 and play the French...I wonder if that's ever really happened... 🙂 )
The 2...Qd5 line is pretty solid, but Black's winning chances are absolutely minimal unless White self-destructs. It's also slightly hard to play at first since White has options of saccing a pawn on b4, N on f7, B on e6, or playing g4 and h4 (after Ne5) to trap the Bf5. Move orders have to be very precise in order to survive the first 10 moves.
Originally posted by no1marauderyou're confusing two distinct systems...in the icelandic gambit the black queen is NOT going to a5 in the opening.
I'm not sure it wastes a tempo; after all White has made two pawn moves. After 3 Nc3, if the Black Queen goes to a5 each side has developed one piece. Is a5 a good spot for the Queen? I generally don't think so, but it's not the only defense where it's deployed out there (Cambridge Springs to the Queen's Gambit comes to mind) so who knows? ...[text shortened]... don't mind your Queen roaming around a bit, go ahead and play it (just not against me, please).
Originally posted by hypermo2001I'm aware of that (all too aware); that's why the mention of the Icelandic Gambit is in the second paragraph not the first where I was discussing 3Qa5. It is still a branch of the Scandinavian, however, and I was saying I hated playing against that in all its foul permutations.
you're confusing two distinct systems...in the icelandic gambit the black queen is NOT going to a5 in the opening.
You want to really throw a Scandi player off their game? Try the Tennison Gambit.
1. e4 d5 2. Nf3 dxe4 3. Ng5
(normally reached via 1.Nf3 d5 2.e4)
Of course, if they keep their head and don't fixate on keeping the extra pawn, you've also really thrown your own game out the window. Amazingly, though, the surprise value of this piece of trash does score some 1-0's now and then in clubs.
Game 610626
maybe it does waste tempo maybe I am just plain horrible at playing or perhaps my opponent was just very good anyway see how my position gets sacked all to pieces.
perhaps the mistake of losing my queen wasnt the most brilliant move but what do you guys think see how I fall apart