Should Non-Paying Members have there separate Top Rankings?

jcmessy

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29 Nov '12 05:18

paulbuchmanfromfics
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01 Dec '12 09:56
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Let's try this again!

There is no pawn on h7. My apologies.

M. Caillaud
[fen]6k1/p1p1p1q1/p1n1p3/1p1r1p1b/6p1/r3b3/8/8 w - - 0 2[/fen]
Position after Black's 20th move. Gamescore?
(White's pieces are hidden)
I tried an hour but couldn't do this one.

Here's what I had:

Black's 20 Moves (In No Particular Order)
1.g5
2.Bh6
3.dxc6
4.Bg4
5.Bh5
6.fxe6
7.0-0
8.Rf3
9.Ra3
10.g4
11.hxg6
12.gxf5
13.Be3
14.Qd4 (or Qf8)
15.Qg7
16.cxb5
17.bxa6
18.Nc6
19.Rd8
20.Rd5

This gets all the pieces to the correct squares, but there is a major problem.
Getting rid of the g8 knight in time to do all this is hard, and it makes me question everything.

All I can see for move 1 is g5. Move 2 only seems to have Bh6 or bxa6 (which is not much help). After g5 and Bh6, you have to quickly ditch the g8 knight.
Unfortunately, at that point, a bishop can't get in and a queen would take with check. The queen needs to come in without Bh6 being player, or a knight must get in and out in time. A knights only entry without check is at h6. To get to h6, you must move the bishop to e3. After the bishop gets to e3, it is too late to castle and play Rf3-Ra3, which is necessary before Be3.

The g8 knight is my whole problem.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Invert Board PGN Comments
1.Nf3 g5 2.Ne5 Bh6 3.Nc6 dxc6 4.b4 Bg4 5.b5 Bh5 6.Nc3 Qd4 {The only way to take the knight is with a knight, but it doesn't seem to work either. Qxg8 would be great, but black can't afford to get out of check. The solution may just keep the f8 bishop at home and play Qxg8} 7.Nd5 g4 8.Ne3 cxb5 9.Nf5 Be3 10.Nh6 Nc6 11.Nxg8 {Fail - The bishop on e3 has prevented 0-0, fxe6, and Rf3-Ra3}

I may even be wrong about the 20 moves at this point! Something isn't working for sure.
mikelom
Ajarn
Wat?
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01 Dec '12 10:56
What a ridiculous task, and waste of time. There are eons of plays that could arrive in this postiton. Stop trying to be so one-upmanship in pretending there are only one or two variations. Pathetic waste of thought time.

-m. 😠
paulbuchmanfromfics
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01 Dec '12 11:04
Originally posted by mikelom
What a ridiculous task, and waste of time. There are eons of plays that could arrive in this postiton. Stop trying to be so one-upmanship in pretending there are only one or two variations. Pathetic waste of thought time.

-m. 😠
The same thing can (as has been) said about chess playing in general, but to each his own ... 🙂
SwissGambit
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01 Dec '12 15:17
Originally posted by mikelom
What a ridiculous task, and waste of time. There are eons of plays that could arrive in this postiton. Stop trying to be so one-upmanship in pretending there are only one or two variations. Pathetic waste of thought time.

-m. 😠
Are you talking about the Caillaud problem? If you are, you just put your foot in your mouth in a big way.
SwissGambit
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02 Dec '12 03:443 edits
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
I tried an hour but couldn't do this one.

Here's what I had:

Black's 20 Moves (In No Particular Order)
1.g5
2.Bh6
3.dxc6
4.Bg4
5.Bh5
6.fxe6
7.0-0
8.Rf3
9.Ra3
10.g4
11.hxg6
12.gxf5
13.Be3
14.Qd4 (or Qf8)
15.Qg7
16.cxb5
17.bxa6
18.Nc6
19.Rd8
20.Rd5

This gets all the pieces to the correct squares, but there is a major p I may even be wrong about the 20 moves at this point! Something isn't working for sure.
Yes, it hinges on how to remove the Ng8.

You have everything right, except for one assumption.
paulbuchmanfromfics
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02 Dec '12 04:01
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Are you talking about the Caillaud problem? If you are, you just put your foot in your mouth in a big way.
He and JC are in the same clan if that helps. No offense intended ... just sayin
paulbuchmanfromfics
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02 Dec '12 04:03
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Yes, it hinges on how to remove the Ng8.

You have everything right, except for one assumption.
I tapped out on that one last night. I better just stick to the easy (easier) ones. I'm waiting to see the solution now, but you can give others a chance first.
SwissGambit
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02 Dec '12 04:14
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
He and JC are in the same clan if that helps. No offense intended ... just sayin
I know his posting history, so it wasn't unexpected. But I like to teach those people to stay out of my threads.
greenpawn34
e4
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02 Dec '12 15:253 edits
Hi Mike.

Admitingly these things are not to everyone's taste but it's far better than reading
about all the engine - whinging and looking at alleged sandbaggers graphs.

"There are eons of plays that could arrive in this postiton."

For a start look at the pawn structure.

There have been 6 pawn captures, that b5 pawn must have come from d7.

Go back to the original diagram.

And count how many moves it would take each piece to get to the sqaure
they are on from their original position.

Queen (d8-g7) 2 moves
a3 Rook (a8-a3) 3 moves
d5 Rook (h8 to d5) 2 moves.
(that is assuming these are the correct Rooks - the a3 Rook could have come from h8)

h5 Bishop (c8-h5) 3 moves.
e3 Bishop (f8-e3) 2 moves.
c6 Knight 1 move
The other Knight must get chopped by a white Knight on g1 to save a tempo.
King one move with castles (after what ever has taken on g1 has hopped off.)

So add up the moves and that is 20 moves.

The stipulation is:

Position after Black's 20th move.

So you can see it does appear there is only one way this can be done.
Black must (with the aid of White) get his moves in the correct order.
SwissGambit
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02 Dec '12 17:59
Originally posted by SwissGambit
I know his posting history, so it wasn't unexpected. But I like to teach those people to stay out of my threads.
Even the threads I hijack. 😳
SwissGambit
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02 Dec '12 18:061 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34
...count how many moves it would take each piece to get to the sqaure
they are on from their original position.

Queen (d8-g7) 2 moves
a3 Rook (a8-a3) 3 moves
d5 Rook (h8 to d5) 2 moves.
(that is assuming these are the correct Rooks - the a3 Rook could have come from h8)

h5 Bishop (c8-h5) 3 moves.
e3 Bishop (f8-e3) 2 moves.
c6 Knight 1 move
...[text shortened]... s (after what ever has taken on g1 has hopped off.)

So add up the moves and that is 20 moves.
Black also made 8 pawn moves, which brings your total to 22. Black needs to save 2 moves. [Paul's post has the list of the 20 moves in random order].
SwissGambit
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03 Dec '12 21:132 edits
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
I tried an hour but couldn't do this one.

Here's what I had:

Black's 20 Moves (In No Particular Order)
1.g5
2.Bh6
3.dxc6
4.Bg4
5.Bh5
6.fxe6
7.0-0
8.Rf3
9.Ra3
10.g4
11.hxg6
12.gxf5
13.Be3
14.Qd4 (or Qf8)
15.Qg7
16.cxb5
17.bxa6
18.Nc6
19.Rd8
20.Rd5

This gets all the pieces to the correct squares, but there is a major p I may even be wrong about the 20 moves at this point! Something isn't working for sure.
Solution to Caillaud:

Invert Board PGN Comments

1. e4 {Black needs all 20 moves to reach the position: 2: Ra3, 2: Rd5, 2: Qg7, 1: 0-0, 8: pawn moves, 1: Nc6, 2: Bh5, 2: Be3. Ng8 is missing, and there is no time to move him. Therefore, white must capture him. But how?} 1... g5 2. Bb5 Bh6 {Because of time constraints, Black must open with these two moves. But this means h6 will be occupied for a long time, putting a damper on the idea Nh6xg8. But Paul was right. Doesn't a wQ give check when it takes g8?} 3. Bc6 dxc6 4. Qh5 Bg4 5. Qg6 Bh5 {The Q got in just in time. But what next?} 6. b4 {hastening to sac on b5 so black can keep moving} 6... g4 7. b5 cxb5 8. Bb2 {! White is going to shield black's K with his own piece.} 8... Nc6 9. Bg7 Qd4 10. Bf8 Rd8 11. Qxg8 Rd5 12. Qg6 hxg6 13. Bg7 Qxg7 {Now it's clear sailing. White just has to be careful with the move order. The e-pawn is next because that gives black something to capture in only 2 moves.} 14. e5 O-O 15. e6 fxe6 16. a4 {and now this one, because the f-pawn has to wait until the Rf8 has passed through f3.} 16... Rf3 17. a5 Ra3 18. a6 Be3 {and not 18...bxa6? 19.f4 and the Bishop is blocked.} 19. f4 bxa6 20. f5 gxf5 *
paulbuchmanfromfics
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03 Dec '12 21:32
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Solution to Caillaud:

[pgn]
1. e4 {Black needs all 20 moves to reach the position: 2: Ra3, 2: Rd5, 2: Qg7, 1: 0-0, 8: pawn moves, 1: Nc6, 2: Bh5, 2: Be3. Ng8 is missing, and there is no time to move him. Therefore, white must capture him. But how?} 1... g5 2. Bb5 Bh6 {Because of time constraints, Black must open with these two moves. But this means h ...[text shortened]... 6 Be3 {and not 18...bxa6? 19.f4 and the Bishop is blocked.} 19. f4 bxa6 20. f5 gxf5 *
[/pgn]
Holy cow! Interposing a WHITE piece at f8 never even crossed my mind! Brilliant!

I can sometimes think outside the box but only in small sperts. 😳

Thanks for posting that. I enjoyed it, even if I did (sadly) give up on it.

Believe it or not, even after I gave up, ideas kept coming to mind. I had a Qf8 (to block the check) idea yesterday morning when I woke up. The sad thing is that sleepy-eyed, you don't realize the king is in the way. 😴
paulbuchmanfromfics
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Moves
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03 Dec '12 21:34
P.S. I love that the solution took you 2 edits to put in. You deserved a little trouble for that braintwister. hehe
SwissGambit
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03 Dec '12 21:38
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
P.S. I love that the solution took you 2 edits to put in. You deserved a little trouble for that braintwister. hehe
I wish it was only 2! I did tons of preview-only edits only to discover that the problem was on my end.

The two edits you see were the easy part - restoring the commentary to the original form after screwing around for half an hour trying to debug the PGN viewer.

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Should Non-Paying Members have there separate Top Rankings?