Originally posted by TenguTell that to the participants in Tournament 793. The later round results don't point to it being winning for white (Round 8 was 2 black wins between good players).
Rubbish!
The From is dubious AT BEST and is based on a succesion of single move threats.
The reason its an effective weapon on occasion is that like any other sharp gambit if you don't know the theory and have to "work it out" OTB chances are you will make a mistake.
The above game I posted is a prime example of how to beat the From. Black come out o ...[text shortened]... (as the other aves will know!!!) and have had this conversation numerous times at my club!!
1. f4 f5
2. e4 fxe4
3. d3 exd3
4. Bxd3
This is the reverse From which does have potential for white.
As for the tourney I would hazard a guess that none play the Bird on a regular basis and therefore will be theory light. I mean, honestly, g3 in response to Ng4?? Its not a disaster (B+K for R+P) but after Kxf2 it doesnt look great does it?
I would also point out that Nf6 is the Mestel variation. Less often played and probably more threatening that the Lasker (g5). Again, you MUST know the theory cold or you will be beaten.
I am more than happy to set up a few games to test this out (putting my money where my mouth is!!!)
Originally posted by TenguThat's called the Swiss Gambit. It actually goes 1.f4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g4. However, at the same time, it's almost a reverse King's Gambit for White except it's black's e4 pawn at risk, not the f4 pawn. Black can follow 4.g4 up with for example 4....d5 5.g5 Ng8 with ideas for White to play h4-h5-d3-Bxd3-f5 for example and get a kingside attack going. Black may have some chance to stop it with for example after h4, Bf5-d3-exd3-Bxd3-Qd7.
1. f4 f5
2. e4 fxe4
3. d3 exd3
4. Bxd3
This is the reverse From which does have potential for white.
As for the tourney I would hazard a guess that none play the Bird on a regular basis and therefore will be theory light. I mean, honestly, g3 in response to Ng4?? Its not a disaster (B+K for R+P) but after Kxf2 it doesnt look great does it?
I would ...[text shortened]... m more than happy to set up a few games to test this out (putting my money where my mouth is!!!)
Originally posted by TenguI think that you are wrong, the from is MUCH better than that.
Rubbish!
The From is dubious AT BEST and is based on a succesion of single move threats.
The reason its an effective weapon on occasion is that like any other sharp gambit if you don't know the theory and have to "work it out" OTB chances are you will make a mistake.
The above game I posted is a prime example of how to beat the From. Black come out o ...[text shortened]... (as the other aves will know!!!) and have had this conversation numerous times at my club!!
Lasker played f4 early in his career and understood it better than most modern GM's. He (and Steinitz) would often chose to play the from against f4. This is when f4 was much more common at the highest levels.
My point was actually that I would play f4 because it avoids tactical book lines, so to point to a very sharp game with 20 book moves does not convince me. In correspondence chess the from loses much of its danger, but i am interested improving my OTB play.
Although I concede that many of the pawn storming lines could be refuted with very accurate play; I would find that lines involving Bg4 would give me long term positional problems.
To say the from is dubious at best is wrong. I am not my best in these positions as either white or black, but I wouldn't mind testing out a few ideas in the from against you.
I'm sorry I just don't agree and Im willing to play a few games to prove it.
There are 2 other points I wish to make:
1) I challenge anyone to find an improvement for Black in the above game in that line of the From. Until move 20 when we leave theory I cant see black improving his position. The only slightly dubious move is rxh2.
2) Take a look at the position after, for example, black's 8th. Are you seriously telling me Black stands better?? You can pretty much say that about any position in the first 10-15 moves. That line is standard theory! the best (so far) there is! And its losing for black.
Originally posted by TenguYou make your point well. It was an impressive game. I would very much like to see other games, in particular with Nf6 or Bg4 lines.
I'm sorry I just don't agree and Im willing to play a few games to prove it.
There are 2 other points I wish to make:
1) I challenge anyone to find an improvement for Black in the above game in that line of the From. Until move 20 when we leave theory I cant see black improving his position. The only slightly dubious move is rxh2.
2) Take a look at th ...[text shortened]... 15 moves. That line is standard theory! the best (so far) there is! And its losing for black.
However you had to play accurately for 20 moves. That is not my style.
That is not the only pawn push that you have to play accurately against. There are many traps.
Black has many other natural moves it can make and a natural target in the e pawn. it can choose to castle queenside or kingside.
OTB I have a terrible record against the From, when I look at any statistics, White has a very poor record.
Originally posted by TenguI would like to know more about the Antoshin variation.
The Bird, like any other opening, requires that you know what you are doing. Simply pushing 1.f4 doesnt cut it.
This is the Antoshin variation in action:
Game 2605884
And an example of how to play From's Gambit properly. I must point out that I cant take all the credit here as we were "in book" until move 21.
Game 2969714
Edit: Tmeztler and I have both annoted the first game. To see it you must first join the "aves clan"!!!
When I played f4 I would play an early Ne5 against any KI type set up, but I liked that game it would suit my style.
Originally posted by UndeadNightOrcGM Danielsen also plays 1 f4 every game with White in OTB tournaments!
GM Henrik Danielsen uses it very effectively in a lot of internet games,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OFfQASWu-Bk
check out the side bar to see more examples (up to 7) of it.
The commentary he includes is very educational. Highly recommended.
(Don't ask me why he calls it the Polar Bear System)
In a booklet that he wrote in the 1970's on the Bird Opening, Andrew Soltis thought so highly of From's Gambit that he advised his readers to transpose into the King's Gambit! (1 f4 e5 2 e4)
However, in two books he later wrote on the Bird he gave lines for White accepting the gamibt.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerTheory changes and with the coming of the internet it changes daily.
In a booklet that he wrote in the 1970's on the Bird Opening, Andrew Soltis thought so highly of From's Gambit that he advised his readers to transpose into the King's Gambit! (1 f4 e5 2 e4)
However, in two books he later wrote on the Bird he gave lines for White accepting the gamibt.
Originally posted by petrosianpupilI accept what you're saying but in EVERY opening there will be tricks and traps and tactics. People have written whole books about them!! At the end of the day you have to know some theory!
You make your point well. It was an impressive game. I would very much like to see other games, in particular with Nf6 or Bg4 lines.
However you had to play accurately for 20 moves. That is not my style.
That is not the only pawn push that you have to play accurately against. There are many traps.
Black has many other natural moves it can mak ...[text shortened]... a terrible record against the From, when I look at any statistics, White has a very poor record.
As for the above game it isnt necessary to play THAT accurately. A lot of the moves are common sense once you get past the first ten moves or so.
The antoshin:
Its a crude and aggressive system based primarily around the e4 push. White basically plays 6 moves:
f4. Nf3. d3. c3. qc2 then away with e4!
As IM Tim Taylor states its a touch crude and with good play black can equalise but its pretty strong OTB against an unprepared opponent.
Originally posted by TenguThanks.
The antoshin:
Its a crude and aggressive system based primarily around the e4 push. White basically plays 6 moves:
f4. Nf3. d3. c3. qc2 then away with e4!
As IM Tim Taylor states its a touch crude and with good play black can equalise but its pretty strong OTB against an unprepared opponent.