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  1. Standard member Wildfire
    Force of Nature
    22 Nov '05 22:14 / 1 edit
    This has to be the worst game I've played thus far on this site...

    Game 1535203

    Any suggestions as to what could and should have been done differently?
  2. 22 Nov '05 22:16 / 3 edits
    I'll have a look at it now!

    8.Qd2 is where you first step wrong. A better move is 8.e5. [8.e5 Nd5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.Qd4 f6 11.f4 Nxc3 12.Qxc3 fxe5 13.fxe5] allows white to hold the advantage. Although the long castling can be a good idea in the Sicilian, it is not here because of Black's half-open b-file.

    With 9...Rb8, Black gains the initiative with his attacking chances, forcing white to defend.

    Try not to castle into an area where Black has open attacking lines. You want to keep the area around your king closed.

    10.a3 allows Black to go up a pawn and eventually a piece with 10...Qxa3 11.Qe3 Qxb2+ 12.Kd2 Rb3 13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Na4 Rxe3 15.Nxb2 Rxe4 16.Bd3 Rb4. Note that white could not recapture 11.bxa3 because 11...Bxa3# is checkmate.

    After 11.Kb1, Black has a forced mate in 6: 11...Bxb2 12.Na4 Bc3+ 13.Kc1 Rb1+ 14.Kxb1 Qb4+ 15.Kc1 Qa3+ 16.Kb1 Qa1#. 11.Nb5 stops the mate.

    After Kb1 there is nothing you can do to stop mate, 12.Qe3 just sped it along.

    9.0-0-0 gave Black the advantage, and 10.a3 was the critical mistake.

    When you see that many pieces pointing at a castled king, you need to think long and hard before you push a pawn there.
  3. Subscriber sundown316
    The Mighty Messenger
    22 Nov '05 22:24
    Castling long,right into that open b-file was pretty bad.
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    22 Nov '05 22:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wildfire
    This has to be the worst game I've played thus far on this site...

    Game 1535203

    Any suggestions as to what could and should have been done differently?
    Don't listen to these fools; castling Queenside into a half-open b-file is nothing unusual against a Sicilian. It's rarely a good idea to trade your d4 Knight, which is well posted, for Black's c6 Knight unless you can immediately win material with your d-file battery. It's usually a good idea to get your Bishop out to c4 to aid in defense of the Queenside; you could have done this as late as move 10. The King usually goes to b1 at some point and then you start your pawn storm on the Kingside. Black's Queen and Rook are normally insufficient to force anything decisive against the Queenside defended by Knight and Bishop but you have to aggressively attack on the Kingside against any Sicilian as White.
  5. 22 Nov '05 22:48
    Exactly! That is why he should have played the pawn e5 before he castled queenside. A player plays the Sicilian to counterattack on the queenside so one of white's objectives is to limit black's oppurtunity for counterplay. White needs to push black back before he castles. You can't just say "Castle queenside in the Sicilian because it's a Sicilian". You have to evaluate the position based on the specific game. e5 was in my opinion, a much better move. If you play through the analysis beginning e5 you will see why.
  6. Standard member Wildfire
    Force of Nature
    22 Nov '05 22:49
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Don't listen to these fools; castling Queenside into a half-open b-file is nothing unusual against a Sicilian. It's rarely a good idea to trade your d4 Knight, which is well posted, for Black's c6 Knight unless you can immediately win material with your d-file battery. It's usually a good idea to get your Bishop out to c4 to aid in defense of the Que ...[text shortened]... ht and Bishop but you have to aggressively attack on the Kingside against any Sicilian as White.
    Once I get my bishop to c4, won't it simply get pushed back by a d5 pawn thrust? I could then move Bb3, but then he would win my e4 pawn...
  7. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    22 Nov '05 23:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wildfire
    Once I get my bishop to c4, won't it simply get pushed back by a d5 pawn thrust? I could then move Bb3, but then he would win my e4 pawn...
    Just off the top of my head: 10 Bc4 d5 11 Bb3 dxe4 Bxf6 and however he recaptures you regain the e-pawn. If he exchanges Queens you can double your rooks on the open d-file.
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    22 Nov '05 23:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by lukemcmullan
    Exactly! That is why he should have played the pawn e5 before he castled queenside. A player plays the Sicilian to counterattack on the queenside so one of white's objectives is to limit black's oppurtunity for counterplay. White needs to push black back before he castles. You can't just say "Castle queenside in the Sicilian because it's a Sici ...[text shortened]... my opinion, a much better move. If you play through the analysis beginning e5 you will see why.
    Premature pawn pushes which lead to early exchanges invariably dissipate any advantage White normally has. The line you give leads to no advantage at all for White after 13 .... Qh4+; in fact, Black is better developed.

    EDIT: Looking at it more closely after 13 .... Qh4+, White can't play 14 g3 because 14 .... Qe4+ wins and if he plays 14 Qg3, Black can trade Queens and leave White with a miserable pawn structure. It looks like White has to forfeit castling with 14 Kd1 and then after 14 ... O-O, Black position's is clearly superior.
  9. 22 Nov '05 23:43
    Originally posted by Wildfire
    This has to be the worst game I've played thus far on this site...

    Game 1535203

    Any suggestions as to what could and should have been done differently?
    You think that is bad! Look at this win I gave away to a... ahemmm... certain person: Game 1576313

    And, at one point, I won a rook, and should have saw the coming pin, but oh well. Chess is life and life is chess... That's life.
  10. Standard member katty
    Feel Me!
    23 Nov '05 05:35
    Originally posted by powershaker
    You think that is bad! Look at this win I gave away to a... ahemmm... certain person: Game 1576313

    And, at one point, I won a rook, and should have saw the coming pin, but oh well. Chess is life and life is chess... That's life.
    I think wildfire's game is worse than this.. Ravello is a good player if he sits on his a$$ for a while and thinks for more time.. I've played him and iknow.. His rating is higher than what shows at the moment. So it's no big deal if he beats you..
    Due to the many games he plays at a time he blunders.I think he gave you a good smack.

    If you see this game of mine, losing to my clan leader in one of our games. A huge rating difference made me take it lightly Game 1337735. I still think this is worse than yours
  11. 23 Nov '05 05:45
    Nice crotch shot, katty.
  12. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    23 Nov '05 05:56
    Originally posted by katty
    I think wildfire's game is worse than this.. Ravello is a good player if he sits on his a$$ for a while and thinks for more time.. I've played him and iknow.. His rating is higher than what shows at the moment. So it's no big deal if he beats you..
    Due to the many games he plays at a time he blunders.I think he gave you a good smack.

    If you see this gam ...[text shortened]... ng difference made me take it lightly Game 1337735. I still think this is worse than yours
    He could have mated you a move earlier as well!! 11..Qh1#
  13. 23 Nov '05 17:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Premature pawn pushes which lead to early exchanges invariably dissipate any advantage White normally has. The line you give leads to no advantage at all for White after 13 .... Qh4+; in fact, Black is better developed.

    EDIT: Looking at it more closely after 13 .... Qh4+, White can't play 14 g3 because 14 .... Qe4+ wins and if he plays 14 Qg3, Black ...[text shortened]... o forfeit castling with 14 Kd1 and then after 14 ... O-O, Black position's is clearly superior.
    But white has a nice line in 8.e5 Nd5 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Qd4 f6 8.Bd3 fxe5 8.Qxe5 where white has much more mobility and can castle. This is the safest way for white to hold the advantage. White can also play Nxd5 soon. This leaves black with a much inferior piece structure and less mobile pieces.
  14. 23 Nov '05 18:11
    Originally posted by katty
    I think wildfire's game is worse than this.. Ravello is a good player if he sits on his a$$ for a while and thinks for more time.. I've played him and iknow.. His rating is higher than what shows at the moment. So it's no big deal if he beats you..
    Due to the many games he plays at a time he blunders.I think he gave you a good smack.

    If you see this gam ...[text shortened]... ng difference made me take it lightly Game 1337735. I still think this is worse than yours
    LOL! Yeah... that was worse! LOL I can't remember the last time I've been beaten in less than 15 moves.

    Bucky
  15. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    23 Nov '05 18:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by lukemcmullan
    But white has a nice line in 8.e5 Nd5 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Qd4 f6 8.Bd3 fxe5 8.Qxe5 where white has much more mobility and can castle. This is the safest way for white to hold the advantage. White can also play Nxd5 soon. This leaves black with a much inferior piece structure and less mobile pieces.
    Look, you really don't know what you're talking about. I could analyze and refute that line like I did your original one but the point is that premature pawn pushes are not good for White in the Sicilian. If he remembers that and not to trade the d4 Knight at c6 unless for a tangible advantage, he'll be fine. Just cuz Fritz thinks e5 is the right move doesn't make it so; Fritz isn't too good in judging long-term positional advantage.