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  1. 08 Jan '13 01:01 / 3 edits


    in the above position i played the move e5 forking the queen and the knight which was
    apparently a mistake, it seemed to me to be such a natural choice, it forced ...Bxf3 exd6
    ...Bxd1 and Rfxd1, after which i perceived that my newly formed passed d pawn would
    need blockading and may cause trouble, although it was really optimistic. Why was such
    a move a mistake and what can i do to avoid making mistakes like this in the future

    many thanks i advance - Robbie.

  2. Standard member ChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    08 Jan '13 01:09 / 1 edit
    15. e5 is a natural looking move. The problem is, he can hit your queen by taking a piece. This negates your threat on the queen, he took a piece which negated your pawn fork attack on the piece. His taking the piece removed the forking pawn's solo defender, so 16.BxBf3 won't work.
    Trying to save the Q and protect the pawn with Qe1 is answered with 16...Qxd3


    “When you see a good move, look for a better one” (Emanuel Lasker)
  3. 08 Jan '13 01:34 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    15. e5 is a natural looking move. The problem is, he can hit your queen by taking a piece. This negates your threat on the queen, he took a piece which negated your pawn fork attack on the piece. His taking the piece removed the forking pawn's solo defender, so 16.BxBf3 won't work.
    Trying to save the Q and protect the pawn with Qe1 is answered with 16...Qxd3


    “When you see a good move, look for a better one” (Emanuel Lasker)
    I see, so its kind of like, hitting the queen with a piece takes all the momentum from
    my pawn fork. I should have realised from the pawn formation, its a Caro/ Semi Slav
    style formation, usually i try to prepare d5 is such formations, maybe some plan
    involving d4-d5 was better. Its just one of those things, like a spite check, you do it
    because you can, not because it accomplishes anything, like this faulty fork. Its a case
    of thinking tactically rather than positionally i think.
  4. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    08 Jan '13 02:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    [fen]rn3rk1/pp3ppp/2pqpn2/8/1P2P1b1/P1NP1NP1/5PBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 1 15[/fen]

    in the above position i played the move e5 forking the queen and the knight which was
    apparently a mistake, it seemed to me to be such a natural choice, it forced ...Bxf3 exd6
    ...Bxd1 and Rfxd1, after which i perceived that my newly formed passed d pawn would
    need blo ...[text shortened]... 7.Kf2 Kd6 38.d4 Nc6 39.a6 Kc7 40.Bxc6 Kxc6 41.Ke3 Kb6 42.Ke4 Kxa6 43.d5 1-0[/pgn]
    You delayed your e-pawn advance one move too late as shown below:

  5. 08 Jan '13 02:16 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    You delayed your e-pawn advance one move too late as shown below:

    [pgn][Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "1-0"] 1.c4 d5 2.cxd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 c6 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.Nf3 Bf5 7.O-O e6 8.d3 Bb4 9.Bd2 O-O 10.a3 Be7 11.b4 Qc7 12.Bf4 Bd6 13.e4 {now 14.e5 is really a threat to fork bishop and knight because if...} 13...Bg4 14.e5 {wins a piece} [/pgn]
    I did not like the look of ...Bxf4 wrecking the pawns around my king, the best move in the position is d4, or Qd2, Qb3 some quiet move that you would never think of.
  6. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    08 Jan '13 02:25
    How about Re1 before you play e5?

    Is the only other move i see, otherwise i'd probably have done the same as you
  7. Standard member ChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    08 Jan '13 02:31
    Originally posted by 64squaresofpain
    How about Re1 before you play e5?

    Is the only other move i see, otherwise i'd probably have done the same as you
    Looks like 14. Re1...BxBf4, gets rid of the piece on d6 making the fork a dream variation, also as RC said, it breaks his King's position open. .
  8. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    08 Jan '13 02:37
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    [fen]rn3rk1/pp3ppp/2pqpn2/8/1P2P1b1/P1NP1NP1/5PBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 1 15[/fen]

    in the above position i played the move e5 forking the queen and the knight which was
    apparently a mistake, it seemed to me to be such a natural choice, it forced ...Bxf3 exd6
    ...Bxd1 and Rfxd1, after which i perceived that my newly formed passed d pawn would
    need blo ...[text shortened]... 7.Kf2 Kd6 38.d4 Nc6 39.a6 Kc7 40.Bxc6 Kxc6 41.Ke3 Kb6 42.Ke4 Kxa6 43.d5 1-0[/pgn]
    I know some people are going to summarily dismiss this, but the position you give is a prime example of "Post It Note" application.

    When I apply Greenpawn34's "Check all checks, and look for loose pieces", I immediately see the loose knight on c3.

    Since the loose knight is the loophole in your planned e5 fork, it's pretty cogent.

    Personally, I am a fan of GM Dorfman's methodology, but I have applied GP's advice with a note on my laptop, and sometimes it's a nice screen that keeps me from making an "over-analytical" mistake, where I make things needlessly complicated and miss the simple stuff.
  9. 08 Jan '13 02:37
    Originally posted by 64squaresofpain
    How about Re1 before you play e5?

    Is the only other move i see, otherwise i'd probably have done the same as you
    yeah the troublesome thing is that we see a fork and think, wow, a fork, it must be good! and play it automatically, mechanically, unthinkingly! which is disastrous!
  10. Standard member ChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    08 Jan '13 02:40
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I see, so its kind of like, hitting the queen with a piece takes all the momentum from
    my pawn fork. I should have realised from the pawn formation, its a Caro/ Semi Slav
    style formation, usually i try to prepare d5 is such formations, maybe some plan
    involving d4-d5 was better. Its just one of those things, like a spite check, you do it
    be ...[text shortened]... g, like this faulty fork. Its a case
    of thinking tactically rather than positionally i think.
    Exactly, his first move snapped up a piece AND simultaneously hit your queen. A threat is no greater than your opponents next threat. He basically "forced" you into queen swap where neither queen does the taking. Such swaps are often the result of a trap or trick or sometimes the trap or trick is waiting after the trade.
  11. Standard member ChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    08 Jan '13 02:43
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yeah the troublesome thing is that we see a fork and think, wow, a fork, it must be good! and play it automatically, mechanically, unthinkingly! which is disastrous!
    Hell Rob, I might have even fallen for it. We're human after all and it looked good, hit a piece, it has to move then I fork him. The problem with tempo is, if your opponent has a good square to move to, you are only forcing him to improve his position by moving to a better square.
  12. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    08 Jan '13 04:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I did not like the look of ...Bxf4 wrecking the pawns around my king, the best move in the position is d4, or Qd2, Qb3 some quiet move that you would never think of.
    If he takes your bishop on f4 with 13...Bxf4 there is no need to take back with 14.gxf4 and wreck your king position because you can regain the material by taking his bishop on f5 with 14.exf5 and then his bishop at f4 must move or be lost, which would allow 15.fxe6.
  13. 08 Jan '13 09:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I see, so its kind of like, hitting the queen with a piece takes all the momentum from
    my pawn fork. I should have realised from the pawn formation, its a Caro/ Semi Slav
    style formation, usually i try to prepare d5 is such formations, maybe some plan
    involving d4-d5 was better. Its just one of those things, like a spite check, you do it
    be ...[text shortened]... g, like this faulty fork. Its a case
    of thinking tactically rather than positionally i think.
    I believe it was more not thinking of both simultaneously.

    I think d4 threatens the fork and rids you of a weak pawn.

    If ...Bxf3 Bxf3 ...e5 d5 and now you have the same passed pawn but much easier to support it. in your variation your pawn was passed but you have no way to defend defend it from attack and this gives it no threat to advance. In this game your opponent didn't seem to realize this and allowed the pawn to become a great strength for you.
  14. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    08 Jan '13 10:40
    I think the threat of e4 is perhaps slightly stronger than the execution. It's interesting to note that the threat of e4 gives you a free Queen move. Qc2 (for example) effectively wins a tempo as black has to waste another move moving his Bishop.
  15. 08 Jan '13 11:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb
    I think the threat of e4 is perhaps slightly stronger than the execution. It's interesting to note that the threat of e4 gives you a free Queen move. Qc2 (for example) effectively wins a tempo as black has to waste another move moving his Bishop.
    the problem is that forcing moves like e4 which essentially neutralise the bishops presence or forces it to go somewhere else are easy to find, its quiet moves like Qc2 that are not so easy to find and this highlights another deficiency, one move threats over planning. e4 is good, but I did not play it for the right reasons, the whole position appears to me to cry out for d4-d5, therefore e4 is good as it helps to prepare d4-d5, not because it simply neutralises a bishops presence or threatens a not very good fork