thinking deficiencies

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
Essentially, the loose knight (I am referring to the knight on c3) means that white can't recapture with 16. Qxf3, because black can take the e5 pawn with an attack on the loose knight.

It is probably more correct to say that 14. Bg4 is the true loophole, since there is a tactical reason why the push to e5 is not an effective fork.

Thank you, I understand now.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[fen]rn3rk1/pp3ppp/2pqpn2/8/1P2P1b1/P1NP1NP1/5PBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 1 15[/fen]

in the above position i played the move e5 forking the queen and the knight which was
apparently a mistake, it seemed to me to be such a natural choice, it forced ...Bxf3 exd6
...Bxd1 and Rfxd1, after which i perceived that my newly formed passed d pawn would
need blo ...[text shortened]... hat can i do to avoid making mistakes like this in the future

many thanks i advance - Robbie.

I think it is about how you assess positions. After the preliminary forced sequence we arrive at this position with Black to play his 17th move:-



So do you see this as

A: a passed d pawn that can cause trouble and may need blockading OR
B: a doubled isolated pawn on an open file?

If you see it as A you might play e5; if B you might reject the move.

So why do you think 15. e5 is apparently a mistake?
My engine records a drop from +0.20 to -0.30 either side of 15. e5 which isn't really enough to help me understand what is going on. To me it means the algorithms evaluate the pawns more of a liability than an asset. In compensation you could argue that you are ahead in development, have more space under control and more options for your pieces so I am not sure. What shall we do - sandpaper some wood off a black pawn and see if that makes things clearer?

In the game I'm not sure that we saw Black make a determined effort to exploit the supposed weakness but we did see you harass him quite hard and he may not have had as many options as one might think at first glance. A deeper analysis is required to see whether his position holds the chances that "a doubled isolated pawn on an open file" would suggest, or if he was simply too cramped to get going.

I think making an accurate evaluation of both sides chances from the position when you decide to play 15. e5 is quite difficult and requires greater skill in "positional judgement" than I possess.
In that sense it can feel like luck as to whether you can win because at the time you make a critical decision you can't be sure your advantages outweigh your weaknesses but you have to play as if they do.

So, when you played the fork if you didn't see doubled isolated pawns that is one thing. If you did and assessed or analyzed your compensating chances as outweighing the weakness that is another. If you have subsequently found a winning line for black that he missed which overturns your assessment then that is a third. In any case you should have a clearer sense as to when doubled isolated passed pawns on an open file can be exploited and whether you would allow them to occur in your position given the choice in future. Maybe only if you can see a forced mate!

All in all an interesting thread.

Originally posted by Ragwort
I think it is about how you assess positions. After the preliminary forced sequence we arrive at this position with Black to play his 17th move:-

[fen]rn3rk1/pp3ppp/2pPpn2/8/1P6/P1NP2P1/5PBP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 17[/fen]

So do you see this as

A: a passed d pawn that can cause trouble and may need blockading OR
B: a doubled isolated pawn on an open file? ...[text shortened]... in future. Maybe only if you can see a forced mate!

All in all an interesting thread.

Well, he won the game so the move must not be that bad to reject it.

Originally posted by Ragwort
I think it is about how you assess positions. After the preliminary forced sequence we arrive at this position with Black to play his 17th move:-

[fen]rn3rk1/pp3ppp/2pPpn2/8/1P6/P1NP2P1/5PBP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 17[/fen]

So do you see this as

A: a passed d pawn that can cause trouble and may need blockading OR
B: a doubled isolated pawn on an open file? in future. Maybe only if you can see a forced mate!

All in all an interesting thread.

yes, Hi Ragwort yes its really interesting, my own thoughts were that after the position that you cite with doubled isolated pawns that the pawn would need blockading and would tie black down, it was apparent that the knight could protect the foremost pawn from e4, but that black could play ...Rd8 and ...Ne8 and the pawn is essentially doomed and after that the other isolated pawn is also pretty domed, but it gave the chance to try and create some weaknesses, for the knight cannot be moved from e4 with ...f5 without creating weakness and from e4 it could jump to c5 creating weaknesses which is what happened in the game, for black is ultra solid if a little cramped, so it was a diversion if you like, a ruse.

In retrospect e5 was a bad move, a terrible move in fact, positionally suicidal, the whole position is crying out for d4-d5, after e5, this can never be the case and it was only by sheer luck more than anything that i was able to create a little weakness on the c file, blacks somewhat cramped position was not helpful to him though. Thanks for taking the time - regards Robbie.

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
I think the threat of e4 is perhaps slightly stronger than the execution. It's interesting to note that the threat of e4 gives you a free Queen move. Qc2 (for example) effectively wins a tempo as black has to waste another move moving his Bishop.

The queen move isn't really any more free than before.

Qc2 and ...Bxf3 nullifies the threat of the fork and black gets his tempi back after Bxf3 because its his move and whites bishop is misplaced on f3.

You're right about the threat stronger than the execution as that was exactly what I was thinking.

Qc2 might still be the move as I don't know the typical plans in positions such as this but it does appear that white should put his major pieces on the c file.

Originally posted by tomtom232
The queen move isn't really any more free than before.

Qc2 and ...Bxf3 nullifies the threat of the fork and black gets his tempi back after Bxf3 because its his move and whites bishop is misplaced on f3.

You're right about the threat stronger than the execution as that was exactly what I was thinking.

Qc2 might still be the move as I don't know th ...[text shortened]... sitions such as this but it does appear that white should put his major pieces on the c file.

I think the best plan was to prepare d4-d5, its a typical plan with pawn structures like blacks, but it needs preparation, Qb3 might be better than Qc2 as it eyes the d5 square, doubling rooks on the d file and getting the fianchettoed bishop involved along the long diagonal and eventually pushing d5 I think is the way to play the position. e5 was a horrendous move.

Originally posted by Ragwort
I think it is about how you assess positions. After the preliminary forced sequence we arrive at this position with Black to play his 17th move:-

[fen]rn3rk1/pp3ppp/2pPpn2/8/1P6/P1NP2P1/5PBP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 17[/fen]

So do you see this as

A: a passed d pawn that can cause trouble and may need blockading OR
B: a doubled isolated pawn on an open file? ...[text shortened]... in future. Maybe only if you can see a forced mate!

All in all an interesting thread.

Can black win the pawn immediately with ...Rd8 and Ne8? If Robbie tries the knight maneuver he played in the game then Nxd6 and the b pawn is protected which means no need for a weakness on the c file and being a pawn up which would surely be better than the game?

Originally posted by tomtom232
Can black win the pawn immediately with ...Rd8 and Ne8? If Robbie tries the knight maneuver he played in the game then Nxd6 and the b pawn is protected which means no need for a weakness on the c file and being a pawn up which would surely be better than the game?

yes the pawn is doomed! me thinks but i had Nc5 hitting the b pawn which saved me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes the pawn is doomed! me thinks but i had Nc5 hitting the b pawn which saved me.

That is what I mean.

If he plays ...Ne8 instead of ...Nd5 and you try playing Nc5 then ...Nxd6 is protecting the b pawn.

Originally posted by tomtom232
That is what I mean.

If he plays ...Ne8 instead of ...Nd5 and you try playing Nc5 then ...Nxd6 is protecting the b pawn.

I think the white knight is faster to c5 is it not? ...Rd8 Ne4, ...Ne8 and Nc5, is it not the case?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think the white knight is faster to c5 is it not? ...Rd8 Ne4, ...Ne8 and Nc5, is it not the case?

Yes, that is how it would go but then immediately after white plays Nc5 black takes on d6 with the knight, protecting b7.

Originally posted by tomtom232
Yes, that is how it would go but then immediately after white plays Nc5 black takes on d6 with the knight, protecting b7.

yeah, its busted!

Originally posted by tomtom232
Can black win the pawn immediately with ...Rd8 and Ne8? If Robbie tries the knight maneuver he played in the game then Nxd6 and the b pawn is protected which means no need for a weakness on the c file and being a pawn up which would surely be better than the game?

My computer engine (TOGA II in SCID) sees b5!? in response to Ne8. The idea is if then 19...Nxd6 20. Nc5 which is looking threats along the h1-a8 diagonal. It is highly complex.

Quite frankly I would have to be on good form to see this at move 19 and in the Pantheon to see it when considering 15. e5. I don't really understand how you are supposed to see this stuff anyway.

It certainly clouds post game analysis because really speaking for most of us the general principle of not making the positional concession in the first place should hold.

Originally posted by Ragwort
My computer engine (TOGA II in SCID) sees b5!? in response to Ne8. The idea is if then 19...Nxd6 20. Nc5 which is looking threats along the h1-a8 diagonal. It is highly complex.

Quite frankly I would have to be on good form to see this at move 19 and in the Pantheon to see it when considering 15. e5. I don't really understand how you are supposed to see /8/1P6/P1NP2P1/5PBP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 17"]

17. ... Rd8 18. Ne4 Ne8 19. b5 Nxd6 20. Nc5 [/pgn]

Ah, its all imagination my friend. I was sitting here trying to figure out a way to line pieces up on the diagonal so that the knight can snag the b7 pawn tactically but I hadn't finished looking at d7.

This is why you should throw out that piece of trash engine. The imagination would have been a much funner way to come up with b5.

Edit: I remember someone telling me to look at pieces that move in straight lines as going through yours and you opponents pieces then you realize that the bishop is on the rook and you just have to get creative to find a way of opening the diagonal. This positition is really interesting actually because b5 should be considered just like other pawn breaks because it is improving the situation of your bishop.

Originally posted by tomtom232
Ah, its all imagination my friend. I was sitting here trying to figure out a way to line pieces up on the diagonal so that the knight can snag the b7 pawn tactically but I hadn't finished looking at d7.

This is why you should throw out that piece of trash engine. The imagination would have been a much funner way to come up with b5.

To tell the truth I looked at the engine because I was looking for the basis of Robbie's "apparently a mistake" remark in his opening post and thought it may have been prompted by a sudden evaluation drop in an engine output during his post game analysis. After all he said that e5 seemed so natural etc etc. so one wonders if he suddenly realized a move he thought good in a game he had won was in fact an error because the machine said so. Been there done that.

Maybe the minority attack is a strategic idea one might consider at move 15 but I doubt that many would see it as part of their deliberations in trying to defend the "passed pawn" they were in the process of creating. Especially when the position before the pawn fork is on the board. Be honest now.

The engine may be trash but it is a great deal stronger than I, and we are starting to find moves that make the white side playable after the "error" and perhaps without its "help" there may have been no discussion.

We can all live in hope that one day a really strong player might appear here and give us some insight ... as least I am crediting my sources 😛