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  1. 15 Sep '06 09:48
    yesterday i was playing blitz OTB and I ran out of time with 3 pawns but my opponent only had a bishop. I claimed a draw because he had insufficient mating material. He said that he had a win because i could help-mate myself (e.g. walk my king into a corner promote a pawn to a bishop and then let him mate with the B on the daignol.)
    This sounds absurd to me, has anyone ever heard of such a rule in blitz or regular game?
    On the other hand this brings up the position where a KNv KP (rook pawn) and the knight can force a mate in certain positions such as:


    black plays 1...Ne6 2.Kh8 Nf8 3.h7 Ng6#
    so why can't white just run down his time and claim a draw by insufficient material?
  2. 15 Sep '06 09:59
    You say your opponent only had a Bishop, but the diagram shows a lone Knight? A forced mate is perfectly possible with King and Bishop, but not with King and Knight unless a defensive mistake is made.
  3. 15 Sep '06 10:17 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by aginis
    yesterday i was playing blitz OTB and I ran out of time with 3 pawns but my opponent only had a bishop. I claimed a draw because he had insufficient mating material. He said that he had a win because i could help-mate myself (e.g. walk my king into a corner promote a pawn to a bishop and then let him mate with the B on the daignol.)
    This sounds absurd to me, has anyone ever heard of such a rule in blitz or regular game?
    The relevant law seems to be:

    6.10
    Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) apply, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player's king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay.


    But he can legally mate you if you co-operate. I think he's right.
  4. 15 Sep '06 10:18 / 1 edit
    I didn't think it was possible with just a King+Bishop? It's hard enough with K+N+B
  5. 15 Sep '06 10:26
    Originally posted by mtthw
    The relevant law seems to be:

    [b]6.10
    Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) apply, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player's king by any possible serie ...[text shortened]... counterplay[/i].


    But he can legally mate you if you co-operate. I think he's right.[/b]
    i don't think so, i think that unskilled counterplay means if he just moves his king back and forth. In order for him to win i would have had to play in a very specific and helpful manner (e.g. unskilled counterplay means letting yourself get forked, it doesn't mean walking your king into a corner surrounding yourself with pieces and getting smother mated.

    In fact you can even claim a draw (before your time runs out) if you have an overwhelming advantage and your opponent is simply playing for time.
  6. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    15 Sep '06 10:34 / 1 edit
    so why can't white just run down his time and claim a draw by insufficient material?[/b]
    if there's a possibility to mate, it isn't insufficient material, right? but isn't there a clause about a 'dead position' or something like that, which covers the cases where it's possible to mate but not without opponent playing along? I seem to remember someone writing here about asking the TD to rule it into a draw in such cases.
  7. Subscriber C J Horse
    A stable personality
    15 Sep '06 10:37
    Originally posted by aginis
    i don't think so, i think that unskilled counterplay means if he just moves his king back and forth. In order for him to win i would have had to play in a very specific and helpful manner (e.g. unskilled counterplay means letting yourself get forked, it doesn't mean walking your king into a corner surrounding yourself with pieces and getting smother mated.
    ...[text shortened]... runs out) if you have an overwhelming advantage and your opponent is simply playing for time.
    "Unskilled" counterplay means just that - it is any play which is unskilled, including setting yourself up for a mate. As I understand it K+B or K+N cannot mate a lone king, but there are certain positions where they can mate a K+P.
  8. 15 Sep '06 10:46
    Originally posted by C J Horse
    "Unskilled" counterplay means just that - it is any play which is unskilled, including setting yourself up for a mate. As I understand it K+B or K+N cannot mate a lone king, but there are certain positions where they can mate a K+P.
    Particularly when it is the MOST unskilled counterplay. That would definitely be setting yourself up to be checkmated.
  9. 15 Sep '06 10:52
    A forced mate is possible with a lone Bishop and king against a lone King. The hunted King has to be first driven into one of the corner squares which is the same colour as the Bishop is travelling on. i.e. a white square for a white squared Bishop. Only then is the mate possible. But this CAN be forced, but it does take a deal of patience and skill.
  10. 15 Sep '06 10:56
    Originally posted by Stives
    A forced mate is possible with a lone Bishop and king against a lone King. The hunted King has to be first driven into one of the corner squares which is the same colour as the Bishop is travelling on. i.e. a white square for a white squared Bishop. Only then is the mate possible. But this CAN be forced, but it does take a deal of patience and skill.
    You know, the funny thing is I have seen an entire thread on this very issue. Will be moving to a new thread now.
  11. 15 Sep '06 10:57
    Originally posted by Stives
    A forced mate is possible with a lone Bishop and king against a lone King. The hunted King has to be first driven into one of the corner squares which is the same colour as the Bishop is travelling on. i.e. a white square for a white squared Bishop. Only then is the mate possible. But this CAN be forced, but it does take a deal of patience and skill.
    What you just said is rubbish...post a fen with a lone king mated by a bishop and king.
  12. 15 Sep '06 11:04
    Originally posted by omulcusobolani
    What you just said is rubbish...post a fen with a lone king mated by a bishop and king.
    This is what I was talking about. Although it took something like a couple of hundred posts before it was accepted that it was not possible. Stalemate is possible was the conclusion. Brilliant work.
  13. 15 Sep '06 11:23
    Originally posted by aginis
    i don't think so, i think that unskilled counterplay means if he just moves his king back and forth. In order for him to win i would have had to play in a very specific and helpful manner (e.g. unskilled counterplay means letting yourself get forked, it doesn't mean walking your king into a corner surrounding yourself with pieces and getting smother mated.
    ...[text shortened]... runs out) if you have an overwhelming advantage and your opponent is simply playing for time.
    'the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player's king by any possible series of legal moves'

    The 'unskilled counterplay' is actually irrelevant. ANY series of legal moves would include a series of legal moves in which you help to checkmate yourself. Therefore, your opponent was correct. You lost. Sorry.
  14. 15 Sep '06 12:36
    Originally posted by Stives
    A forced mate is possible with a lone Bishop and king against a lone King. The hunted King has to be first driven into one of the corner squares which is the same colour as the Bishop is travelling on. i.e. a white square for a white squared Bishop. Only then is the mate possible. But this CAN be forced, but it does take a deal of patience and skill.
    Sorry you are so very very wrong (in fact learn how to use the search function - I edited out what I really want to call you).

    Lets take your example. Light squared bishop, king in light sq. conrner.

    So for instance the black king is on a8. Now take your white king and place him so as to restrict the black kings movement. THe will end up on one of 4 squares - a6,b6,c7 or c8; Now pick up the bishop and check the king (i.e. the bishop goes on b7). Guess what ?????? the king has an escape sqaure. If the white king was on a6/b6 then black play Kb8, if it was on c7/c8 then black plays Ka7 (both of these are dark squares. Now how did you manage to get a 1630 rating w/o being able to figure this out??
  15. 15 Sep '06 16:01
    Yes I realised when I posted this I had made a mistake...I was actually thinking about forced mates with B+B being possible, B+N also being possible but not N+N...I realise I didn't put that though and apologies to all....

    And a note to Zebano...try not to get too excited when someone makes a mistake we all do it from time to time.