Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    20 Jan '10 14:04
    Anyone know anything about his engine?
  2. 20 Jan '10 14:09
    Toby Tal Chess Engine Playing Program (beats Rybka)
    World's Strongest Chess Program that can beat Rybka 3.1

    Playing strength 3200

    Don't Mess Around with Toby

    All seems rather shady though
  3. 20 Jan '10 14:12
    Just replayed a few games. If that's supposed to represent the 3200 level of chess, I want my money back.
  4. 20 Jan '10 14:24
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Anyone know anything about his engine?
    Only what's been posted on the CCC forums (http://talkchess.com).
  5. 20 Jan '10 15:38
    TOBYTAL CONTROVERSY

    My name is Tim Tobiason and I am the co-author and owner of TobyChess
    and the distributor of the TobyTal chess engine. In 2003, I hired a
    programmer to create Deep Tactics, an interface which does many
    wonderful things. Early on my programmer wrote a chess engine which
    found every checkmate at the end of every game in the chessbase
    database which we stored. It then analyzed backwards finding every
    possible way to force mate. We stored these and that is how we created
    the 12 million checkmates which we sell with Deep Tactics and Toby
    Tal. We discovered that the average mate in 4 has 140 solutions and
    the average mate in 6 has over 1,000 ways to mate so we have a reader
    which displays every branch of the tree in our trainer. We called this
    engine nutcracker and it is part of TobyTal.

    A year ago we created a new engine called serpent which beat Rybka
    every single game. It beat every engine every time except Hiarcs which
    got 4 draws in 16 games. Its elo rater rating was 3600+. It was
    designed to run on 128 bit machines and we ran it off of a server.
    This engine did not use trees, nodes, branches, etc. It created a new
    kind of table-base it could make on the fly and then plan on how to
    achieve the future positions. Authorities stepped in and stopped us
    from selling it and no amount of money would have changed this. I
    cannot divulge the rest of the story at this time.

    I asked the programmer over the last year to make a new engine with
    our best
    ideas and last November he provided me with a test copy of Toby-Tal.
    It was small, 120K. It used nutcracker and ideas from Serpent although
    we still use searches, nodes and trees. I showed this to a customer in
    Kansas at that time and was told about a new engine that was out
    called Robollito. We did not release TobyTal at this time because we
    had a serious hash table read error which caused us to switch from 32
    bit hash tables to 64 bit hash tables. This fixed the problem of our
    engine getting weaker over time from read errors from the old hash
    tables.

    On release of our engine a couple of weeks ago by e-mail and at the
    North
    American Open, I found I had received profane e-mails from "anonymous"
    accusing me of selling a clone (Robo). My website was attacked with
    millions of hits and taken out of business along with my e-mail for
    about a week while I was on the road. We are now back up running and I
    will address the issues which have been raised.

    1. TobyTal is a unique engine which we created. It is 120K in size.
    Robo is 301K and Rybka about 2.3mg. Our engine is encrypted but not
    compressed. This is to protect our code which I paid to create and
    which I personally contributed to. It is our legal property with
    dozens of new ideas which I intend to protect. This is the first
    engine in which part of its program was actually written by another
    program.

    2. It solves about 1/2 of the Nolot puzzles on Wikipedia. hese are
    puzzles too hard for chess engines to solve. On puzzle 9 we found a
    novel solution (Nxh6) which wins in every variation! Neither Robo or
    Ryka can solve more than 1-2 of the 20 puzzles. We find unique moves
    in many situations because of a special King attack routine we
    invented. I have seen arguments accusing us of being the same as Roby,
    etc because we play the same moves in a position that they do. When I
    run the positions in Fritz 12 it also finds the same moves, therefore
    Fritz 12 must be a clone too?

    3. We have multi move and search move and Robo does not. We do not
    have tablebase support yet. We also have nutcracker and serpent code
    inside.

    4. We do not run on most windows XP systems (which we hope to fix
    soon) while the other engines do.

    5. Using a checksum to compare the engines, we found about 5%
    identical code with Robollito which I consider convenience code used
    by all chess programs. Things like Quintz search and null move are
    common among all strong programs and we use some of these as wells.

    6. We play better chess than Robo or Rybka by 20-80 points right now
    which is a lot at that level. If you look at the games, they run in
    streaks. When we lose in the streaks, we have a hash table read error
    or other major bug which only happens in play game mode. It does not
    happen in analysis mode. Once this bug is found and fixed we may play
    a hundred points or more above Robo &Rybka!! 7. Our engine is 32 bit
    bit but plays well vs the 64 bit versions of Robo and Rybka.

    7. In the end if the Robo people wish to resolve this in court, we
    will happily submit our code to the court for 3rd party comparison
    under the courts supervision to ensure our code remains secret.

    I am selling our engine on-line and at tournaments. At the North
    American Open in Las Vegas, we sold 21 TobyTal's while Chess Palace
    told me they sold 5 Fritz 12's and 4 Rybka's. People could see the
    engine matches and install them on their own computer and test them
    themselves.

    I do not sell the engine online as a download. We only sell it with
    the Deep tactics interface and to prevent piracy, future versions will
    be tied to the interface like Fritz 12.

    The issues will be settled on the chessboard in the coming months. We
    will add tablebase support, new chess knowledge and make a windows XP
    version in the next few weeks and will hopefully fix the bug in the
    current version. I will send this to all of you as a free upgrade if
    you have already purchased TobyTal [Thanks for the business]. After
    that we will create multi core and 64 bit versions with opening
    learning and multi computer capabilities. This will be sold as Deep
    TobyTal for $89 or an additional $30 upgrade.

    In 4-6 years, there ill be no more chess engines as chess will be
    solved and the
    moves will simply be looked up in tables (similar to the dinosaur
    methods of tablebases used today). Then all these chess engine
    arguments will be obsolete.
  6. 20 Jan '10 17:05
    Early on my programmer wrote a chess engine which
    found every checkmate at the end of every game in the chessbase
    database which we stored. It then analyzed backwards finding every
    possible way to force mate. We stored these and that is how we created
    the 12 million checkmates which we sell with Deep Tactics and Toby
    Tal. We discovered that the average mate in 4 has 140 solutions and
    the average mate in 6 has over 1,000 ways to mate so we have a reader
    which displays every branch of the tree in our trainer. We called this
    engine nutcracker and it is part of TobyTal.


    This part is somewhat interesting, but I cannot see the relevance of this abundance of junk variations for a strong engine nor strong human nor anyone who likes or dislikes chess
  7. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    20 Jan '10 17:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by heinzkat
    [quote]Early on my programmer wrote a chess engine which
    found every checkmate at the end of every game in the chessbase
    database which we stored. It then analyzed backwards finding every
    possible way to force mate. We stored these and that is how we created
    the 12 million checkmates which we sell with Deep Tactics and Toby
    Tal. We discovered that the ...[text shortened]... e of junk variations for a strong engine nor strong human nor anyone who likes or dislikes chess
    without any personal knowledge of the engine, the claim that chess will be solved proves the whole lengthy prose either a scam or horribly misinformed about the computational complexity of chess. the other claim about 'the man' stepping in and stopping the distribution of the first engine seems to point to a scam as well.

    is there really anything concrete behind the claims of toby beating rybka, like a respectable 3rd party pitting them against each other in a controlled environment? I get only links to an ebay page, which is pretty laughable. the whole 128bit part seems like designed to obstruct any possible layman peer reviewing as well.
  8. 20 Jan '10 17:26
    Originally posted by heinzkat
    Just replayed a few games. If that's supposed to represent the 3200 level of chess, I want my money back.
    I particularly enjoyed this crushing of Rybka:

  9. 20 Jan '10 17:30
    Neither is playing at 3200 level?
  10. 20 Jan '10 17:34
    Originally posted by heinzkat
    Neither is playing at 3200 level?
    How do you know?
  11. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    20 Jan '10 17:35
    Originally posted by Meadows
    How do you know?
    because the game looks like rubbish?
  12. 20 Jan '10 17:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Meadows
    How do you know?
    1 - because their opening prep sucks
    2 - neither displays some impress the newbies GM 2800 level

    3200 should be a level with little horizon trouble and deep opening stuff, not this horizontal ploughboy's chess
  13. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    21 Jan '10 14:40
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    TOBYTAL CONTROVERSY

    My name is Tim Tobiason and I am the co-author and owner of TobyChess
    and the distributor of the TobyTal chess engine. In 2003, I hired a
    programmer to create Deep Tactics, an interface which does many
    wonderful things. Early on my programmer wrote a chess engine which
    found every checkmate at the end of every game in the chessba ...[text shortened]... methods of tablebases used today). Then all these chess engine
    arguments will be obsolete.
    Yes, I received that email, too. That's what prompted the question.
  14. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    21 Jan '10 14:41
    Originally posted by heinzkat
    horizontal ploughboy's chess
    I gotta remember that phrase. It's brilliant!
  15. 21 Jan '10 18:04
    I just looked at the pgn file posted on his web site. Assuming no cherry-picking is going on, Toby PC slightly edged out Rybka 3 (1-cpu), but then again, the Robbos etc seem to be doing that also.

    Myself, I'm happy just using the free Stockfish 1.6 ja, which isn't too far below the Rybka 3 performance level. And it's even stronger than the free Rybka!