Traxler blows

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
I would definitely take black in the Traxler fairly happily. I play 1..c5 normally, but when I dabble in 1..e5 I'm always angling for a Traxler. I just find it annoying when people strut around claiming something is bad for Black, and don't actually have any basis. It's hurting their chess. At least Squelch then presented a line, which looks to be a good tr ...[text shortened]... yed, etc.. hence my comment about the need for some chessplayers to read some stats books. 😀

1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4

And your 10th move is...

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4

And your 10th move is...

Check my BTW, in the above post.

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Check my BTW, in the above post.

So my line does seem slightly better for white?

By the way, I have to say the 1 white win & 1 draw thing was meant tongue in cheek & as just a vague db reference for anyone interested. Hence the brackets.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
So my line does seem slightly better for white?

equal but with a black tempo is my opinion...

fritz sorta agrees...

where's the freakin korch when ya need him 😛.

So my try is:
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4


Do you suggest 10...Nf7

Originally posted by ih8sens
funny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 d6
8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Nc3 Qg6 10. Nh4 Qg4 [fen]r1b2r2 ...[text shortened]... t is good for white but the game does equalize.. and black gets the tempo... good enough for me.

6.Bd5 is probably better, but you seem to miss the point. The Traxler just isn't good enough. I'm a pretty decent OTB player well in touch with IM/GM theory. All the strongest players have access to the latest Fritz (and other engines) and powerful hardware plus databases etc. I can assure you that it will have been extensively analysed, and if it were playable, it would be played at the highest level. Unfortunately it is not. But I agree that it is perfectly playable at lower levels.

Originally posted by Northern Lad
6.Bd5 is probably better, but you seem to miss the point. The Traxler just isn't good enough. I'm a pretty decent OTB player well in touch with IM/GM theory. All the strongest players have access to the latest Fritz (and other engines) and powerful hardware plus databases etc. I can assure you that it will have been extensively analysed, and if it were ...[text shortened]... est level. Unfortunately it is not. But I agree that it is perfectly playable at lower levels.

Plus why risk losing with something so complex & untested at GM level when, as a pro, you play chess to put food on the table & clothe the kids?

Originally posted by Northern Lad
6.Bd5 is probably better, but you seem to miss the point. The Traxler just isn't good enough. I'm a pretty decent OTB player well in touch with IM/GM theory. All the strongest players have access to the latest Fritz (and other engines) and powerful hardware plus databases etc. I can assure you that it will have been extensively analysed, and if it were ...[text shortened]... est level. Unfortunately it is not. But I agree that it is perfectly playable at lower levels.

Maybe Traxler is not 100% sound
BUT
arguments like "if its not popular then it`s not playable" is absolutely unconvincing. And I think that this banal argument have been discussed in many threads for example in - Thread 70577 (page 3 and 4).

Erm hate to throw a spanner in the works...

Anand vs Beliavsky
0-1
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018213

Efimov vs Shirov
0-1
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1123363

But Beliavsky only managed a draw with the Traxler against some guy called Karpov here:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1068378

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
I would definitely take black in the Traxler fairly happily. I play 1..c5 normally, but when I dabble in 1..e5 I'm always angling for a Traxler. I just find it annoying when people strut around claiming something is bad for Black, and don't actually have any basis. It's hurting their chess. At least Squelch then presented a line, which looks to be a good tr ...[text shortened]... ver moves and chess gymnastics, Black has his fair share of chances in a very messy position.

I would prefer 7...Qe8!? (instead of 7...Bxf2+)

Originally posted by Korch
I would prefer 7...Qe8!? (instead of 7...Bxf2+)

Really? I will have to try that next time...what is the idea behind it?

Originally posted by tomtom232
Really? I will have to try that next time...what is the idea behind it?

Idea is to:
1) make free d8 for king;
2) play d6, h6 and (after Nf3) Bg4, making initiative in kingside.

Originally posted by Korch
Idea is to:
1) make free d8 for king;
2) play d6, h6 and (after Nf3) Bg4, making initiative in kingside.

hmmmm that definately looks worth a try...knowing me I will bungle it up though 😀

Originally posted by chessisvanity
here's a line for ya....

THE TRAXLER SUCKS!!

you suck too mad mac macmad

Grow up.

How old are you anyway?

Originally posted by Korch
Maybe Traxler is not 100% sound
BUT
arguments like "if its not popular then it`s not playable" is absolutely unconvincing. And I think that this banal argument have been discussed in many threads for example in - Thread 70577 (page 3 and 4).

I stand by what I said. Strong players are always looking for new opening lines to try out and surprise opponents. Powerful engines and large databases are a big help in this. And finding good counter-attacking lines for black is something that's particularly sought after.

Playing counter gambits for black doesn't even require demonstrating full compensation for the pawn. Openings like the Benko and Marshall come into this category. Black gets enough play in terms of creating practical chances.

Since 4.Ng5 has recently become more popular at higher levels (Nigel Short even considers it a refutation of the Two Knights), you can rest assured that the Traxler will have been examined in some detail at GM level. Interesting fact: I have not been able to find a single game of any sort in the last eight years in which a 2500+ has played the Traxler with black. Must mean something.