Traxler blows

Whats wrong with this position? THe king is perfectly safe, and black has an open file for the rook?

I think black is slightly better. People should play position before running there mouth.

btw I am a 12 year old girl.

1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3


(by the way this scores 3 white wins & 1 draw on my database, whereas with 7.0-0 white scores 8 wins, 5 losses & 2 draws)

Originally posted by Northern Lad
Actually the opposite. Certainly at higher levels, if you know your opponent is a Traxler player and you have time to prepare, most players will be more likely to play Italian (3.Bc4), even if it isn't their normal opening. And why? Because objectively it's just good for white, and no amount of bluster or wishful thinking on the part of Traxler aficiona least black doesn't get anything like adequate compensation for the pawn), so there you are!

funny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 d6
8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Nc3 Qg6 10. Nh4 Qg4

White to move.

It seems that white is better but black can probably draw with perfect play.

Edit - I personally play 9. ... Ng4!? and fritz gives black perfect equality after Nd5+, Kd7, 0-0, Qh5.

Conclusion.. Nxf7 probably loses and definitely draws... no one with modern analysis will argue this anymore.

Bxf7+ leads to equality... it is good for white but the game does equalize.. and black gets the tempo... good enough for me.

Originally posted by Korch
6...Rf8

I agree though d6 is perfectly acceptable there too.

Originally posted by ih8sens
funny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...

This is the mistake when analysing with computers!

Bxf7+ is much better for white than Nxf7 with which black gets superb (& often decisive) attacking chances for the losing R for N. Often black's attack is so strong he can simply forget about the white Nh8.
Fritz may well go mad for Nxf7 for white but ask any Traxler expert playing black if they'd rather 5.Bxf7+ or 5.Nxf7 & I bet they'll always prefer the 5.Nxf7...Bxf2+ continuation.

Originally posted by ih8sens
funny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 d6
8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Nc3 Qg6 10. Nh4 Qg4 [fen]r1b2r2 ...[text shortened]... t is good for white but the game does equalize.. and black gets the tempo... good enough for me.

My line is better for white.
😉

1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
My line is better for white.
😉

1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3

No It's not!!

7. ... Bxf2+! and black has AT LEAST equalized as well as kept the tempo with greater king safety.

8. Kxf2, Nxe4+

9. Kg1, Nxg5

... cmon squelchbelch you know better than that 😛.

Originally posted by ih8sens
No It's not!!

7. ... Bxf2+! and black has AT LEAST equalized as well as kept the tempo with greater king safety.

8. Kxf2, Nxe4+

9. Kg1, Nxg5

... cmon squelchbelch you know better than that 😛.

1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4

what's next?
black to move

(1 white win & 1 draw from here on my database)

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4

what's next?
black to move
[fen]r1bq1r2/ppppk1pp/2n5/4p1n1/2BP4/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQ2KR b - d3 0 10[/fen]
(1 white win & 1 draw from here on my database)

Do you know anything about elementary statistics? The Central Limit Theorem? Anything? Sample sizes? Anything?

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Do you know anything about elementary statistics? The Central Limit Theorem? Anything? Sample sizes? Anything?

Rofl.

So I guess you're pro-traxler tony?

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Do you know anything about elementary statistics? The Central Limit Theorem? Anything? Sample sizes? Anything?

I understand what you're saying.
As Korch said earlier, talk is cheap 😉

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
I understand what you're saying.
As Korch said earlier, talk is cheap 😉

hey man you want a game and I'll make your play look cheap 😉

.. I thought you were a big fan of the traxler? Guess I'm wrong 😛.

Originally posted by ih8sens
hey man you want a game and I'll make your play look cheap 😉

.. I thought you were a big fan of the traxler? Guess I'm wrong 😛.

I am a fan of the Traxler. However, as with any gambit you have to at least appear to seem objective.
I really think the line I gave is the best for white.

I don't have Fritz. What does it score for my line & what improvements does it suggest for white?

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
I am a fan of the Traxler. However, as with any gambit you have to at least appear to seem objective.
I really think the line I gave is the best for white.

I don't have Fritz. What does it score for my line & what improvements does it suggest for white?

it gives it as better for black and ends up winning for black when you play it out 🙂.

Sorry man 😛.

Originally posted by ih8sens
Rofl.

So I guess you're pro-traxler tony?

I would definitely take black in the Traxler fairly happily. I play 1..c5 normally, but when I dabble in 1..e5 I'm always angling for a Traxler. I just find it annoying when people strut around claiming something is bad for Black, and don't actually have any basis. It's hurting their chess. At least Squelch then presented a line, which looks to be a good try for an advantage in my opinion. Basing an assessment of a position on 2 games is absolutely preposterous, especially without mentioning who these players were, when the game was played, etc.. hence my comment about the need for some chessplayers to read some stats books. 😀

BTW: I would be hesitant to try this 7..Bxf2+ line as Black. I would much prefer something a little slower such as 7..d6!? I screwed around with Junior for a while and came the conclusion that White is slightly better, but after some clever moves and chess gymnastics, Black has his fair share of chances in a very messy position.