White to move.
This position comes from Jeremy Silman's "The Amateur's Mind".
Silman suggests 1.Re1 to discourage ...f6 and overprotect the e5 square, combined with "a timely b4" to fix Black's c-pawns; turning to a kingside attack he talks about a "quick kill" with Bg5 followed by Qf4-h4 and then Bf6/Bh6 and Ng5.
I'm not sure I see the quick kill. Black will not exchange on h6 (or f6); if the bishops are exchanged on g7 the king prevents the queen from occupying h6; after the bishops are exchanged the Black queen is free to re-occupy d8 and cover the d8-h4 diagonal, exchanging queens if possible; and Black can play ...h5.
I suppose White could bring the rook over, or advance the g-pawn to pry open the position, but what is Black doing in the meantime with regard to kingside defense?
No doubt Silman is right and I'm a bit weak in failing to see the follow-through immediately and with clarity (I've tried to do this only by looking at the board position: visualization rather than moving pieces on a model board). Any comments/analysis?
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsA real reply.
[fen]r2q1rk1/p1p2pbp/b1p1p1p1/3pP3/3P1B2/2P2N2/PP1Q1PPP/R4RK1[/fen]
White to move.
This position comes from Jeremy Silman's "The Amateur's Mind".
Silman suggests 1.Re1 to discourage ...f6 and overprotect the e5 square, combined with "a timely b4" to fix Black's c-pawns; turning to a kingside attack he talks about a "quick kill" with Bg5 followed ...[text shortened]... : visualization rather than moving pieces on a model board). Any comments/analysis?
I see the point of Bg5 being to drive the opposing queen off of the dark squares. After that you have along complicated maneuver to bring B to h6 and Q to h4 instead of just play Bg6. I figure the point of this is to be able to play Ng5 as well.
That said, After Bg5, Qd7 (assuming either f6 or f5 has been played) seems to hold things together for black. However due to the assumption that f6 or f5 has been played exf, with the rook on e1 and a knight going to g5 should at least win a pawn for white.
I will try and come up with a more concrete line instead of just ideas.
Originally posted by zebanoI think we can agree that ...f6 is out of consideration. The question is what happens without it, and how.
A real reply.
I see the point of Bg5 being to drive the opposing queen off of the dark squares. After that you have along complicated maneuver to bring B to h6 and Q to h4 instead of just play Bg6. I figure the point of this is to be able to play Ng5 as well.
That said, After Bg5, Qd7 (assuming either f6 or f5 has been played) seems to hold things toge ...[text shortened]... in a pawn for white.
I will try and come up with a more concrete line instead of just ideas.
Re1, c5 (why not?)
Bg5 Qd7,
cxd, cxd,
Rfc1 (to support c5),
b4 (Shutting down the c5 break) Bc4 (to allow a5, and prevent pressure against the backward c-pawn).
Qf4? (going for Silman's Knockout), a5
and I prefer black slightly.
If instead of Qf4 white tried a4, a5, b5, c5, bxc6 e.p.,Qxc6 I slightly prefer black due to the Q + R being on the c-file and white having a backward d-pawn.
I cannot find a knockout. I will now go back to move 2 and investigate dxc instead of Bg5.
Try two:
Re1, c5, dxc ... c6?, I really don't know why I went to all the trouble I did before as black gets no compensation against the e-pawn like I expected. Sp the above analysis is wasted.
Try Three
Re1, Rb8 (black has to do something)
Bg5 (it's with tempo, I see no reason not to drive the queen off our dark squares), Qd7
b4!, Bc4 (prepping a5?)
Qf4, a5
a3, Rba8
Qh6, Ra7
Bh6, Rfa8
Rab1, axb4
axb4, Ra2
Ng5, ???,
BxB, KxB
Qxh7+. Kf8
Qh8+, Ke7,
Qg7, Qe8, Qf6+ picking up the f-pawn
or Qg7, Rf8 Nh7, Rfa1 ??? and I don't think there's enough of an attack left to compensate for the rook black dropped on the second rank.
Conclusion
I can't find a convincing attack, but that doesn't mean it's not there. More to the point white gets some play from the stated attack, but b4 isn't the killer move that Silman makes it out to be. By playing Bc4 and a5 black can continue to make minimal (active) counterplay.
Black does get crushed rather quickly by the attack. Rf1 is headed for h3, Q goes to h4, B to f6, and the g-pawn rushes forward.
I played white here against Fritz (very quick line, just to give an idea):
1. Rfe1 Re8 2. Bg5 Qd7 3. Bf6 Bf8 4. Qf4 Rab8 5. b4 Bb5 6. a4 Bd3 7. Re3 Bc2 8. Ne1 Bb3 9. Rh3 Bc4 10. Qh4 h5 11. g4 Bh6 12. gxh5 g5 13. Bxg5 and white's already two pawns up with ongoing attack. Black can probably do better than this but I don't see anything really stopping white from carrying out his plan.
Originally posted by zzywThanks for this. But what about something like this:
Black does get crushed rather quickly by the attack. Rf1 is headed for h3, Q goes to h4, B to f6, and the g-pawn rushes forward.
I played white here against Fritz (very quick line, just to give an idea):
1. Rfe1 Re8 2. Bg5 Qd7 3. Bf6 Bf8 4. Qf4 Rab8 5. b4 Bb5 6. a4 Bd3 7. Re3 Bc2 8. Ne1 Bb3 9. Rh3 Bc4 10. Qh4 h5 11. g4 Bh6 12. gxh5 g5 13. Bxg5 and white's ...[text shortened]... do better than this but I don't see anything really stopping white from carrying out his plan.
1.Re1 Qd7 2.Bg5 Rfb1 3.b4 Qe8 4.Qf4 Qf8 5.Qh4 Bc8 6.Bf6 a5 7.Ng5 h5 8.g5 Bxf6 9.exf6 Qh6
Maybe this isn't the way White should play it given these responses from Black, but I was kind of trying to follow Silman's prescription.
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsThe position must logically be a forced win for white, since black is effectively a piece down. The bishop on a6 is not playing any real part in the game. In the suggested sequence I don't much like 4.Qf4. I'd prefer to close up the queen side first with a4 and a5, then go for the 'kill' on the king side with moves like h4, Nh2, Ng4, Qf4 (possible preceded by Rad1 to keep the bishop out of d3), h5, Re3. The attack will virtually play itself, because, as I said before, white is a piece up, at least where it counts.
Thanks for this. But what about something like this:
1.Re1 Qd7 2.Bg5 Rfb1 3.b4 Qe8 4.Qf4 Qf8 5.Qh4 Bc8 6.Bf6 a5 7.Ng5 h5 8.g5 Bxf6 9.exf6 Qh6
Maybe this isn't the way White should play it given these responses from Black, but I was kind of trying to follow Silman's prescription.
Originally posted by Northern LadThanks for this. It would help if you provided a specific move order to evaluate -- that way I can get ideas in trying it over the board. (I've gone beyond visualization since reading zzyw's post).
The position must logically be a forced win for white, since black is effectively a piece down. The bishop on a6 is not playing any real part in the game. In the suggested sequence I don't much like 4.Qf4. I'd prefer to close up the queen side first with a4 and a5, then go for the 'kill' on the king side with moves like h4, Nh2, Ng4, Qf4 (possible prece ...[text shortened]... ually play itself, because, as I said before, white is a piece up, at least where it counts.
In my sequence, aside from attempting to adhere to Silman's prescription for an attack, I began with the assumption that as Black I wanted to get my queen to f8 and also that if I didn't press my own queenside plans I'd be doomed for sure. At the end the bishop is playing a more active role since it points to h3 and at an appropriate point ...e5 might be played to good effect.
OK, I am attempting to incorporate more of Northern Lad's suggestions. Allow me to preface this by saying that, first, he is rated a solid 2300 and I am a (probably soft) 1700; and second, I am feeling rather poorly today (mentally): the point being, in what follows if I have adapted these suggestions incompetently it is not with the intent of creating a straw man to tear down.
That said, it seems to me that perhaps in failing to press his kingside attack with alacrity, White affords too much flexibility to Black's kingside defense. For example:
1.Rfe1 Qd7 2.a4 Rae8 3.Bg5 f6 4.exf6 Bxf6 5.Bxf6 Rxf6 6.Ne5 Qd6 7.b4 Ref8 8.h4 Bb7 9.h5 Qe7 10.hxg6 hxg6
In any case, I still don't see the "quick kill" Silman referred to. (Also note that Ng4 can best be answered by ...Qf4, at several points.)
I am also wondering about the possibility of a Black king-walk to an area of relative safety.
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsOn reflection I prefer going straight in with 2.Bh6 (rather than 2.Bg5) and after say 2...Rfb8, maybe the less committal 3.b3. Whether black then tries 3...Qe7 4.Qf4 Bxh6 5.Qxh6 Qf8 6.Qf4 or 3...Bh8 4.Re3 Re8 5.Ng5 Re7 6.Rae1 Rae8 7.Rh3 f5 8.exf6 Bxf6 9.Rf3 he is doomed in the long (or not so long) run, since he is, as I remarked previously, effectively playing a piece down. I would hate to play this position as black and wouldn't expect to survive long (at least against decent opposition).
OK, I am attempting to incorporate more of Northern Lad's suggestions. Allow me to preface this by saying that, first, he is rated a solid 2300 and I am a (probably soft) 1700; and second, I am feeling rather poorly today (mentally): the point being, in what follows if I have adapted these suggestions incompetently it is not with the intent of creating a ...[text shortened]... am also wondering about the possibility of a Black king-walk to an area of relative safety.