11 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by Maxwell SmartYour reference to TOS for defending persons who have violated them in one of the most unhonest way is real excuse to avoid seeing the facts.
Now you are rationalizing your actions instead of facing the fact that wrong is wrong. If it is wrong to violate the TOS, then it is wrong to violate the TOS...you can't pick which portions of the TOS are to be followed, and which are to be ignored. You know the truth of this, anything else is simply an excuse.
Btw. If you need TOS to be obeyed (btw. which norm of TOS is violated?) your I dont have problem to create separate blog to post all I want to say. To say nothing about possibilitie to make accusations threw the PMs and Private forums.
P.S. If I would have faith that admins are objective and dont make indulgence to some "untouchables" (Should admit - few months ago I still was naive enough to trust them) then I would support your opinion.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by Korch1) I actually didn't realize what was allowed or not, TOS-wise, until the Cludi debacle. It was then that I was first made aware of the rule against public cheating accusations and, eventually, saw the wisdom behind it.
2) If you are so worried about violation of TOS itself I should ask why your objection is risen only when its turned against your clan mate? Similar actions have been many times and some of them managed by your clan ex-leader - all DUNE clan kept quiet then.
2) I am not Arrakis and vice-versa. I disagreed with him on his public pursuit of cheating allegations against you and let both of you know of that fact in private. Although that was based more on my strong belief that you are not an engine than any awareness of the TOS at that time (see item 1).
3) Since the blow up in April, I try to stay out of forum arguments of this nature. Dune does not need yet another leader banned. 🙂 Yes, the fact that this particular case involves a member of my clan has prompted me to go against that instinct.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by IchibanovThere have been public accusations also after cludi thread.
1) I actually didn't realize what was allowed or not, TOS-wise, until the Cludi debacle. It was then that I was first made aware of the rule against public cheating accusations and, eventually, saw the wisdom behind it.
2) I am not Arrakis and vice-versa. I disagreed with him on his public pursuit of cheating allegations against you and let both of you ...[text shortened]... this particular case involves a member of my clan has prompted me to go against that instinct.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by KorchFirst of all, you misrepresent my position. I support Ronald, but I am in no way defending him. I am saying that he needs no public defense, as he should not be publicly accused. What you choose to post via PM or private forum is your business. I chose to leave OTB club because of posts that were made there. I did not ask anyone to edit any posts, it was a private forum. I understand that DF has taken some actions there, and I think he works very hard to try to maintain a fair environment, but I didn't ask him to and I didn't make my issues public (until now). You can have all of these types of conversations that you want, but they have no place in the public forums. I know that you are a reasonable person, so please try to see the truth of my statement.
Your reference to TOS for defending persons who have violated them in one of the most unhonest way is real excuse to avoid seeing the facts.
Btw. If you need TOS to be obeyed (btw. which norm of TOS is violated?) your I dont have problem to create separate blog to post all I want to say. To say nothing about possibilitie to make accusations threw the PMs a ...[text shortened]... it - few months ago I still was naive enough to trust them) then I would support your opinion.
11 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Korch
There have been public accusations also after cludi thread.
I mark my own epiphany regarding the wisdom of the TOS rule (according to a post in the Dune private forum) as March 6th. The Arrakis mess went down on March 25th. Much of the time between those dates was spent dealing with the imminent passing and subsequent arrangements for my Mother-In-Law.
Since I assumed leadership of Dune, I've only visited these forums infrequently, preferring a small set of private forums instead. A fellow Dune member alerted me to these particular goings on and so here I am.
But we're far afield from the main point.
I'm sorry to hear of your lack of faith in the site admins. Personally, I thought the mod system seemed to be making some good progress in recent days. While your lack of faith makes your attitude more understandable, you are still in the wrong if you take cheating accusations public. I have great respect for you as a player and a clan leader, but on this issue we are never going to see eye-to-eye.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI don't care about people who make a concerted effort to protect obvious cheats. There's nothing in the TOS barring truthful assertions that someone is matching up to an engine far beyond what the greatest correspondence players in history ever could; that rule is simply a forum posting guideline. It's a bad one; the fact is without people continuing to put pressure on the Site Admins nothing would get done about Game Moderation. In fact, there wouldn't even be Game Moderators in the first place if it wasn't for the public outing of cheats. That is a fact whether you want to pretend differently or not.
Every analysis? What analysis? This stuff isn't published - at least not here.
I am not interested in hearing that you analysed x games and found a match up rate of y, This means zip. You have to demonstrate that the probability of a player of a similar standard would get the same match up rate is lower than some threshold value. Since the number o ...[text shortened]... other threads. The rights and wrongs of this particular case have nothing to do with that.
That you are ignorant over how to do proper game analysis doesn't mean everybody else is. The Game Mods basic procedures are well known and fairly easily duplicated. They ignore opening book moves (I'm stunned you don't know this) so opening theory is not relevant.
To complain about public accusations and then bitch that you haven't seen game analysis of cheaters' games in these Forums is hypocritical.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by Fat LadyFirstly Fat Lady, I don't know you and therefore apologise for my generic accusation in an earlier post. No offence meant. There is clearly nothing at all wrong in seeking to eliminate cheating from this or any other site.
In every single case, bar one, when I have accused or implied that someone of being an engine user, he or she has subsequently been banned. The single exception is Weyerstrass.
The simple fact is that there are people who cheat on every single online chess site around, and this one is no different. Over the last year or so I've come to realise that this ...[text shortened]... you can point to one post of mine where I accuse an innocent person of cheating, please do so.
However, your argument seems to boil down the fact that you are frustrated at the rules of the site, and the policing of them, and so you take the law into your own hands and quite overtly accuse people of cheating.
You might expect me to point out that this is a slippery slope, whether applied to a gaming site, or more serious legal issues. The rules are there for us all to abide by, or to move on.
The rules are clear, however frustrated you are. Perhaps the lack of a transparent approach to the process of 'justice' is the problem here; something that has no doubt been flogged to death in the forums for some time, and decided against by the site powers-that-be.
I just took particular issue with the fact that the person being accused is not some anonymous shadow, with a block- capital name, but a Master of some apparent repute internationally. I think that, in such circumstances it is credible that Weyerstrass is at least capable of beating all opposition on this site, and as such, any accusations of cheating require evidence. Evidence in this context means that which can be both scientifically proven, and subject to scrutiny by others.
I see no such evidence, and so the copper in me says a presumption of innocence therefore applies. All that aside from the fact that the player in question has (apparently) strong evidence of good character in that he is a proven top level player. Surely this whole debate is therefore insulting. Indeed, whilst we are talking about rules and their application, if this were a case at court - any court - the judge would have thrown it out long ago due to lack of substantial evidence.
That probably tells you something.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by IchibanovPlease cite the provision of the TOS which SPECIFICALLY bars accusations of engine use in the Forums.
1) Not all the people who spoke against you fall into the group(s) you're referencing.
2) The "correctness" of these open accusations isn't the question. It's the fairness of making them in the first place. Flaunting of the TOS is unacceptable, regardless of rating.
There isn't any. There is one specifically barring the use of engines, however.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by PolicestateRidiculous. You want to enforce a forum posting rule barring the presentation of ANY evidence of engine use but then say there is no evidence because the existing evidence (consisting of dozens of analyzed games, perhaps more) can't be presented in the Forums?
Firstly Fat Lady, I don't know you and therefore apologise for my generic accusation in an earlier post. No offence meant. There is clearly nothing at all wrong in seeking to eliminate cheating from this or any other site.
However, your argument seems to boil down the fact that you are frustrated at the rules of the site, and the policing of them, and ...[text shortened]... wn it out long ago due to lack of substantial evidence.
That probably tells you something.
How's the view under the sand?
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by no1marauderTrue, it's not clearly stated in the TOS. But it is a site rule, similar to the provision against the posting of private correspondence (PMs, private forum stuff) here in the public forum. Personallym I think all such rules should be in the TOS, but they're not. Still, it's forbidden, has been for some time and flaunting the rule can get you a forum ban.
Please cite the provision of the TOS which SPECIFICALLY bars accusations of engine use in the Forums.
There isn't any. There is one specifically barring the use of engines, however.
For a clear statement of all this, please see page four of the following thread: Thread 102577
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexSome of his early games, available on various databases, have been analyzed using the same methods as are used to analyze games here. His match ups are 25-30% higher on RHP.
It is a different situation when the player concerned has been a master since before the days of engines - most of the other engine users who get 'outed' in the forums are obviously cheating as they tend to have some sort of feeble cover story such as being a self taught genius.
This result, too, has been given to the Game Mods.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by IchibanovI don't care.
True, it's not clearly stated in the TOS. But it is a site rule, similar to the provision against the posting of private correspondence (PMs, private forum stuff) here in the public forum. Personallym I think all such rules should be in the TOS, but they're not. Still, it's forbidden, has been for some time and flaunting the rule can get you a forum ban.
...[text shortened]... tement of all this, please see page four of the following thread: Thread 102577
Outing obvious cheats is an aid to the site whether the site will admit it or not.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by no1marauderThe fact is without people continuing to put pressure on the Site Admins nothing would get done about Game Moderation. In fact, there wouldn't even be Game Moderators in the first place if it wasn't for the public outing of cheats.
I don't care about people who make a concerted effort to protect obvious cheats. There's nothing in the TOS barring truthful assertions that someone is matching up to an engine far beyond what the greatest correspondence players in history ever could; that rule is simply a forum posting guideline. It's a bad one; the fact is without people continuing to ...[text shortened]... hat you haven't seen game analysis of cheaters' games in these Forums is hypocritical.
Well said. Rec`ed.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by no1marauderBe glad to:
Please cite the provision of the TOS which SPECIFICALLY bars accusations of engine use in the Forums.
There isn't any. There is one specifically barring the use of engines, however.
TOS
6. Member Conduct...
Post, email or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
Now I'll parse it out for you:
Post... any Content that is... harmful,... harassing,... defamatory,... libelous, invasive of another's privacy,... or otherwise objectionable;
I'll give you enough credit to be able to look up the meaning of any of those words which you may have difficulty with.
The forum posting guidelines that you have referred to represent the fact that my interpretation of the TOS is closer to accurate than yours...
But you are used to tasting your feet anyway.