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Posers and Puzzles

Posers and Puzzles

  1. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    07 Feb '10 05:48
    A guy finds himself in a room which is actually a long hallway, but he doesn't know the extent. He has with him a calculator, paper and pen, ruler( one foot and metric marks also) and a guitar string, an E string which is 0.01" in diameter (the smallest string on a guitar) and hears a voice from an unknown source saying, you are free to go if you figure out where you are, or what kind of a place and how big is it you are in.
    What he is in is a huge gravity wheel in space, where the 'floor' is where the ceiling would be if we were on earth but centrifugal/centripetal forces are putting him on the inside skin of a rotating wheel one kilometer in radius so the circumference is about 6 Km. Now he can walk all the way round the rim like that but the walls are so black he cannot see down the hall to notice he is in a curved environment. So what can he do to figure out his situation? He can walk all the way round the thing in a few hours but he doesn't know he has come back to the starting point, he doesn't want to lose his stuff, so he has to do some thinking. What would that be?
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    08 Feb '10 00:12
    Shouting and listening to the echo might help. If it's a straight endless hallway there should be no echo, etc.
  3. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    08 Feb '10 06:53 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Shouting and listening to the echo might help. If it's a straight endless hallway there should be no echo, etc.
    That's true, but his keeper want's something more quantitative, like the size of the wheel if and when he figures out he is in a wheel. Can you think of a way he could figure out he is in a wheel, without using the ruler and wire? Can you think of a way he can figure out he is in a wheel USING the ruler, wire, calculator, pen and paper?
    One thing, if he does yell, and it is 6 odd Km in circumference, could he maybe hear his own voice coming out at him from behind? At about 300 meters per second, the sound could be heard around 20 seconds later if it didn't attenuate to undetectability which maybe it wouldn't, being in a kind of whispering gallery. Interesting point. We will add another thing to his kit of stuff, a nice Casio Chronograph like the G shock series. What can he do with that besides timing his round trip voice if he could hear it?

    Also, I might add, he feels he is in a one G environment and has no idea he is in a wheel, so how many RPM would the 1 Km radius wheel rotate at to give him a 1 G envornment?
  4. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    08 Feb '10 08:16
    I changed the ruler length, one foot won't do, it's really a two meter ruler.
  5. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    08 Feb '10 14:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I changed the ruler length, one foot won't do, it's really a two meter ruler.
    lay the ruler on the ground. The ground is curved so there should be a measurable gap in the centre of the ruler. All he has to do is measure the gap (using the piano wire) and then calculate the circumference\diameter of the circle
  6. 08 Feb '10 15:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by uzless
    lay the ruler on the ground. The ground is curved so there should be a measurable gap in the centre of the ruler. All he has to do is measure the gap (using the piano wire) and then calculate the circumference\diameter of the circle
    Does he really know the shape of the circumference? What if it is an ellips? What will be the difference?
  7. 08 Feb '10 16:08
    I suppose that once he's got a working hypothesis that he's in a circle he could walk round the wheel and take measurements at other points. The apparent gravity would change as well if it wasn't circular.
  8. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    08 Feb '10 19:36
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Does he really know the shape of the circumference? What if it is an ellips? What will be the difference?
    of course you'd have to take a few additional measurements. the consistency would become immediately clear.
  9. 08 Feb '10 20:37
    Originally posted by uzless
    of course you'd have to take a few additional measurements. the consistency would become immediately clear.
    So you do some measures to find out that it's not a perfect circle, you do some more to find out that it isn't even a perfect ellips, then you cannot know anything about the circumference.
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    08 Feb '10 21:53
    Originally posted by uzless
    lay the ruler on the ground. The ground is curved so there should be a measurable gap in the centre of the ruler. All he has to do is measure the gap (using the piano wire) and then calculate the circumference\diameter of the circle
    Are you sure the ground is curved enough? I thought of this too and dismissed it as impractical due to the gentleness of the curve.
  11. Standard member ua41
    Sharp Edge
    09 Feb '10 03:51
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Are you sure the ground is curved enough? I thought of this too and dismissed it as impractical due to the gentleness of the curve.
    Definitely too crude of tools to detect.
  12. 09 Feb '10 09:17 / 3 edits
    The wheel is 1000m in radius, the ruler is 2m in length.
    So, we can form a right angled triangle, W, c, e where W is the centre of the wheel, c is the centre of the ruler (lying on the ground across the corridor) and e is the end of the ruler.

    We know
    1000^2 = 1^2 + {Wc}^2
    so {Wc} = sqrt(1000^2 - 1)

    And the gap under the ruler is:
    gap = 1000 - sqrt(1000^2 - 1)
    That is about 0.0005m
    i.e 0.05cm
    i.e 0.5mm

    The guitar string is diameter 0.01 inches, which is 0.254 mm So our guitar string should fit under it, but wouldn't if the ruler was half as long, so that's why it has to be 2m. It has to be a very stiff ruler too.
  13. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    09 Feb '10 11:44
    Originally posted by iamatiger
    The wheel is 1000m in radius, the ruler is 2m in length.
    So, we can form a right angled triangle, W, c, e where W is the centre of the wheel, c is the centre of the ruler (lying on the ground across the corridor) and e is the end of the ruler.

    We know
    1000^2 = 1^2 + {Wc}^2
    so {Wc} = sqrt(1000^2 - 1)

    And the gap under the ruler is:
    gap = 1000 - s ...[text shortened]... he ruler was half as long, so that's why it has to be 2m. It has to be a very stiff ruler too.
    Yep, that's right, I thought up the problem before I did the calc's and found you got a half mm only with a 2 meter ruler, with a good straight edge. There is one other thing you are forgetting about.
  14. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    09 Feb '10 17:52
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Yep, that's right, I thought up the problem before I did the calc's and found you got a half mm only with a 2 meter ruler, with a good straight edge. There is one other thing you are forgetting about.
    you could measure the ceiling too....

    i thought i'd leave that one to someone else. But since no one mentioned it, you'd hold your ruler at one end and measure the gap from the other end of the ruler to the ceiling.
  15. 09 Feb '10 23:02
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Yep, that's right, I thought up the problem before I did the calc's and found you got a half mm only with a 2 meter ruler, with a good straight edge. There is one other thing you are forgetting about.
    I should have said he *lays* the ruler along the corridor. Essentially he wants to get it as flat as it can go, and if it is still not touching the floor in the middle he knows the corridor is curving up at all points around him (He doesn't know that it will carry on doing that and come back on itself though)