1. Joined
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    16 Nov '17 08:59
    Originally posted by @sonhouse


    15 THOUSAND scientists issuing this warning.
    and, sadly, way more than 15 MILLION morons will ignore it.
  2. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 17:08
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    I think you need to study economics a bit more. If the carbon tax was passed on to the consumer there would be more likely a LOSS of profit because people would find other means for heating, like geo thermal, solar, wind and the like. I don't know how much the carbon tax would be if added to the price of natural gas but suppose it increases the consumer co ...[text shortened]... r a while but people would catch on especially in light of the bad press such a move would make.
    They would just switch to natural gas which is carbon light for a fossil fuel. ExxonMobile would profit from that. Your faith that people would switch to renewables is silly. Predictions like that are very unreliable.
  3. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 17:13
    Originally posted by @black-beetle
    Seriously?
    When you posted earlier:

    "Below is an article that Fred Singer wrote a comment below it. It will give you an idea how biased the alarmists are:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v478/n7370/full/478428a.html "

    did I ask you to provide me something else?

    You appear to conclude that, as regards your interlocutors, a link is all on ...[text shortened]... u see me the way you see humy and wildgrass, kindly please feel free to reply not to this post😵
    "did I ask you to provide me something else?"

    If you had I would have provided it for you as I have for many people when asked. You did not ask. When I asked you refused like a cad. You are very inconsiderate and not worth communicating with because of it. Jerk!
  4. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 17:17
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/11/13/thousands-of-scientists-issue-bleak-second-notice-to-humanity/?utm_term=.0141ecfa385b

    15 THOUSAND scientists issuing this warning.
    Scientists are not climate scientists. Uninformed opinions do not mean much. More irrelevance from you again.
  5. Germany
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    20 Nov '17 17:25
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Scientists are not climate scientists. Uninformed opinions do not mean much. More irrelevance from you again.
    Gee, I wonder what climate scientists have to say about the climate.
  6. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 17:41
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    Biased either way? You clearly don't read stuff before you post the links. black beetle and I both read it, and we don't think it says what you think it says. The majority of respondents selected "Comply with Kyoto" as their logical frame. A direct quote from your reference: "there seems to be consensus that anthropogenic climate change presents a profoun ...[text shortened]... ge".

    Please reiterate how you interpret the major conclusions of that study. Did you read it?
    I read it. You apparently read only what you wanted to while ignoring what you didn't want to accept. I can see that some people speculated as to why the poll numbers changed over time by saying oil companies "may" have increased skepticism by funding climate skeptics. MAY? My chickens "may" be able to count. That doesn't mean they can, but I'm sure you will believe what you want to believe regardless of facts.

    The fact is that the poll showed most people do NOT believe man is the main cause of GW. Some alarmists in denial try to explain it away by alleging the polls are being corrupted without any evidence at all. Apparently your denial is just as bad. If you have a problem with the poll explain specifically what it is. Either you accept it as accurate or you don't. Which is it?

    Frame 2: Nature is overwhelming

    "The second largest group (24😵 express a ‘nature is overwhelming’ frame. In their diagnostic framing, they believe that changes to the climate are natural, normal cycles of the Earth. Their focus is on the past: ‘If you think about it, global warming is what brought us out of the Ice Age.’ Humans are too insignificant to have an impact on nature: ‘It is a mistake to think that human activity can change this… It would be like an ant in a bowling ball who thinks it can have a significant influence the roll of the ball.’ More than others, they strongly disagree that climate change poses any significant public risk and see no impact on their personal lives. In their prognostic framing, they do not see any risks. If anything, climate change detracts from more important issues: ‘Why don’t we focus on more urgent issues… 25,000 people die each day due to hunger, malaria …’ They are most likely to speak against climate science as being science fiction, ‘manipulated and fraudulent’. They are least likely to believe that the scientific debate is settled, that IPCC modeling is accurate, and oppose all regulation ‘based on the incorrect assumption that greenhouse gases cause climate change’. They recognize that we should reduce pollution regardless: ‘We need to adapt to climate change, which has been going on for 4 billion years. We need to reduce polluting our planet.’ In their identity and boundary work, they are least likely to list others as allies or prescribe any actions for themselves or others. Significantly, they are more likely to criticize others as unknowledgeable and to describe climate scientists and environmentalists as hysterical: ‘This present hysteria on “global warming” is purely political and has little to do with real science.’ APEGA ‘should educate the public and the government … to counteract media hype and pressure from the green extremists.’"

    " Frame 4: Fatalists

    ‘Fatalists’, a surprisingly large group (17😵, diagnose climate change as both human- and naturally caused. ‘Fatalists’ consider climate change to be a smaller public risk with little impact on their personal life. They are sceptical that the scientific debate is settled regarding the IPCC modeling: ‘The number of variables and their interrelationships are almost unlimited – if anyone thinks they have all the answers, they have failed to ask all of the questions.’ ‘Fatalists’ consider the Kyoto Protocol as ‘too late’ and irrelevant. They are much less likely to support regulation generally, but do also not care about the economy, and are much less likely to express emotions (except for denying responsibility), or use symbolism and metaphors. Fatalists are not convinced that involvement will make a difference and, thus, following Gamson (1992), they do not develop the sense of agency. To the contrary, they seem generally apathetic – ‘How can anyone take action if research is biased?’ They are least likely to speak for themselves, define themselves as experts or admit any professional and ethical responsibilities. Likewise they are least likely to refer to others in a positive or negative way."

    Maybe you are not reading what it really says. Speculation is merely speculation. Copy and paste what you think proves something significant if you wish, but if starts with the word "may" it proves nothing at all.
  7. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 17:45
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    Gee, I wonder what climate scientists have to say about the climate.
    Me too. A fair poll of climate scientists is long overdue.

    The fact is you don't know what they have to say until you or someone else asks them. All of them!
  8. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 18:111 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    I read it. You apparently read only what you wanted to while ignoring what you didn't want to accept. I can see that some people speculated as to why the poll numbers changed over time by saying oil companies "may" have increased skepticism by funding climate skeptics. MAY? My chickens "may" be able to count. That doesn't mean they can, but I'm sure you ...[text shortened]... s something significant if you wish, but if starts with the word "may" it proves nothing at all.
    I asked you to reiterate the major conclusions (in your own words), not cut and paste the whole article. We know where the link is. Does this research help prove your point, or are you just trying to muddy the water with irrelevant social science?
  9. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 18:20
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    I asked you to reiterate the major conclusions (in your own words), not cut and paste the whole article. We know where the link is. Does this research help prove your point, or are you just trying to muddy the water with irrelevant social science?
    I didn't copy and paste the whole article, just the important parts you failed to read or dismissed. Now the conclusions are clear to you so you can let go of your denial. If there are specific flaws you would like to point out go ahead and do that. Don't falsely claim I didn't read the article in an attempt to not be specific.

    I'm fine with you comparing the poll I posted to the others on this thread. Give it your best effort.
  10. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 18:22
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    I didn't copy and paste the whole article, just the important parts you failed to read or dismissed. Now the conclusions are clear to you so you can let go of your denial. If there are specific flaws you would like to point out go ahead and do that. Don't falsely claim I didn't read the article in an attempt to not be specific.

    I'm fine with you comparing the poll I posted to the others on this thread. Give it your best effort.
    What are the conclusions?
  11. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 18:32
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    What are the conclusions?
    I showed you. You can't do basic math?

    Why are you evading my questions? Don't want to admit you are wrong again?
  12. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 18:411 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    I showed you. You can't do basic math?

    Why are you evading my questions? Don't want to admit you are wrong again?
    I would like to see where the data concurs with your thesis. I don't see it in the article, and I don't see it in your paragraphs of block text. These paragraphs are descriptions of how people feel about the issue. It seems to completely skirt all scientific evidence. Where does it discuss the validity of a scientific consensus on causes of global warming? In your mind, what does this sociology study demonstrate?

    I believe your question was whether or not I agree with the conclusions of this article. But I can't find any clear scientific conclusions at all. Without that, this article and your question are irrelevant. You should be able to provide a recap.
  13. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 18:48
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    I would like to see where the data concurs with your thesis. I don't see it in the article, and I don't see it in your paragraphs of block text. These paragraphs are descriptions of how people feel about the issue. It seems to completely skirt all scientific evidence. Where does it discuss the validity of a scientific consensus on causes of global warming ...[text shortened]... hout that, this article and your question are irrelevant. You should be able to provide a recap.
    Only 36 percent of geoscientists and engineers believe that humans are creating a global warming crisis. That is the conclusion of the poll.

    I suppose you are going to point out some excerpts from the article using words like "may" or "could".
    My chickens "may" be able to count and they "could" be more intelligent than most people think. They may not and they could not as well. Your bias is clouding your judgement. Read all the words, not just what you want to.
  14. Joined
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    20 Nov '17 19:10
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    I suppose you are going to point out some excerpts from the article using words like "may" or "could".
    No, I'm not going to point that out. This study isn't interested in whether a scientific consensus exists or not. This study is interested in policy. I am going to point out (again) that "Comply with Kyoto" is the largest group of respondents. This study does not ask data-driven question, instead dividing everyone into 6 groups based on "feelings" rather than science. At least one of these groups (economic responsibility) is indifferent when it comes to anthropogenic causes.

    Other scientific studies we have looked at showed 67% and 65% agreement among scientists that humans cause >50% of global warming. I don't see anything here that refutes that. If I'm wrong, please show me.
  15. Germany
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    20 Nov '17 20:39
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Me too. A fair poll of climate scientists is long overdue.

    The fact is you don't know what they have to say until you or someone else asks them. All of them!
    No single survey is ever going to ask "all" climate scientists their opinion about anything.

    You know very well what the consensus is among climate scientists.
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