1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    05 Oct '16 17:12
    I put this in the debate forum I should have put it here, my bad.

    "I wonder if the way we are screwing around with GMO if that doesn't affect Bee's lives?"

    Phranny posted an excellent link:
    http://healingmindn.com/personal/GMOs_DeathoftheBees.pdf

    Wouldn't this be more of a immediate threat that say global warming if
    both were true?
  2. Subscribersonhouse
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    05 Oct '16 17:26
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I put this in the debate forum I should have put it here, my bad.

    "I wonder if the way we are screwing around with GMO if that doesn't affect Bee's lives?"

    Phranny posted an excellent link:
    http://healingmindn.com/personal/GMOs_DeathoftheBees.pdf

    Wouldn't this be more of a immediate threat that say global warming if
    both were true?
    Loss of bees would be tragic but they are not the only pollinators. Bats and some fly's also pollinate.
  3. Cape Town
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    05 Oct '16 18:171 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Loss of bees would be tragic but they are not the only pollinators. Bats and some fly's also pollinate.
    But bees are currently absolutely essential for the pollination of many crops.

    However, I do not think bees will suddenly go extinct. What I expect is a shortage of bees followed by shortages of certain crops followed by higher prices for bees followed by a lot more effort into breeding them and keeping them safe.
    Hopefully all followed by more holistic sane agricultural practices.
  4. Cape Town
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    05 Oct '16 18:22
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    What got me thinking along these lines are that specific bees are said to be dying off.
    It started me wondering if there were in the areas these bees live an abundance of GMO
    and in areas these bees were not dying off are GMO not there in the same amounts?
    (from debates thread)
    So essentially your argument is:
    There are two things I know practically nothing about, I find them confusing, and they both have something to do with agriculture. Maybe they are related!

    The problems with bees have been studied and are being studied and a number of causes are known. GMO's is currently not one of them.
    Known causes include:
    1. Insecticides and other chemicals.
    2. Diseases. (whose spread is aided by the way we transport bees all over the place).
    3. Mono-cultures and a shortage of wild lands.
  5. Cape Town
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    05 Oct '16 18:30
    Many GMOs do include genes for built in insecticide, so it is entirely possible that some GMOs have poisonous (to bees) pollen. However, that is almost certainly not the leading cause of bee deaths.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    05 Oct '16 18:33
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But bees are currently absolutely essential for the pollination of many crops.

    However, I do not think bees will suddenly go extinct. What I expect is a shortage of bees followed by shortages of certain crops followed by higher prices for bees followed by a lot more effort into breeding them and keeping them safe.
    Hopefully all followed by more holistic sane agricultural practices.
    Good luck with the sane ag practices.
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    06 Oct '16 06:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Many GMOs do include genes for built in insecticide, so it is entirely possible that some GMOs have poisonous (to bees) pollen. However, that is almost certainly not the leading cause of bee deaths.
    That is my conclusion.
    The vast bulk (but not necessarily all of it) of what is said against GMO is entirely based on just unscientific hysterical paranoid biased opinion and the usual unscientific anti-GMO propaganda.
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    06 Oct '16 06:3215 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay

    Phranny posted an excellent link:
    http://healingmindn.com/personal/GMOs_DeathoftheBees.pdf

    This is not an "excellent link" at all and is definitely one of the very WORST ones I have ever seen for it is extremely Unscientifict.
    It repeatedly implies a causal link between GMO and bee decline but there is no real evidence for this and the so called 'evidence' it does show is completely unscientific presented as it completely idiotically does next-to-nothing to consider all other possible causes of the observations! That is certainly NOT how good science works!
    It even implies GMO could be responsible for "the rise of new cases of medical ailments in humans such as colon cancer, obesity, heart disease, etc" which is a belief obviously based on completely stupid hysterical paranoid ignorant unsubstantiated unscientific opinion as there is currently NO scientific evidence of any significant causal link.

    It is always VERY important in science not to confuse, just as your link did, a correlation with cause-and-effect; night is always followed by day thus night is clearly correlated with day but that doesn't mean night causes day.
    If you want to know the truth, I recommend you ignore such completely stupid unscientific links and try and find links about real science.
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    06 Oct '16 10:39
    Originally posted by humy
    This is not an "excellent link" at all and is definitely one of the very WORST ones I have ever seen for it is extremely Unscientifict.
    It repeatedly implies a causal link between GMO and bee decline but there is no real evidence for this and the so called 'evidence' it does show is completely unscientific presented as it completely idiotically does next-to-n ...[text shortened]... you ignore such completely stupid unscientific links and try and find links about real science.
    "Conclusion:
    The proof is obvious that one of the major reasons of the bees’ decline is by the
    ingestion of GMO proteins. This is problematic, as there is such an increase of
    indigestible foods in humans and bees. The situation of colon cancer in humans is
    somewhat similar in occurrence. This is only a theory but leaves one to wonder what
    are we eating en mass. The external or complementary good of the bee is obviously a
    rise for a global concern. The long-term economical and environmental impact has yet
    to be completely understood.
    The Ecological Impact of horizontal gene transfer and increase of rampant disease is
    not fully examined and if so, is kept silent by these Conglomerates. The Economic
    impact of the bee colony collapse would mean inflation, scarcity of agricultural
    commodities, and ultimately the collapse of North American agriculture.
    The Environmental Impact of scarcity and increased demand for resources, will beyond
    doubt have severe repercussions for our long-term food security. The bio-diversity of
    the bees causes positive economic and ecological externalities. The negative
    externalities have yet to be fully grasped or understood."

    The bottom line of that piece, it starts out saying it is obvious the cause but the last sentence says not fully grasped or understood.
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Oct '16 13:59
    Originally posted by humy
    This is not an "excellent link" at all and is definitely one of the very WORST ones I have ever seen for it is extremely Unscientifict.
    It repeatedly implies a causal link between GMO and bee decline but there is no real evidence for this and the so called 'evidence' it does show is completely unscientific presented as it completely idiotically does next-to-n ...[text shortened]... you ignore such completely stupid unscientific links and try and find links about real science.
    Fine, do you have any you'd like to suggest on the topic?
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    06 Oct '16 15:084 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Fine, do you have any you'd like to suggest on the topic?
    The cause of the bee decline, at least in the UK and at least for bumblebees;

    https://bumblebeeconservation.org/about-bees/why-bees-need-help/

    "...Changes in agricultural techniques have meant that there are far fewer wildflowers in the landscape than there used to be, meaning that many of our bumblebee species are struggling to survive. ..."

    -no mention of GM their!

    and what about this for the causes of decline of honey bees;

    http://environment.about.com/od/biodiversityconservation/a/honeybees.htm

    "...Many believe that our increasing use of chemical pesticides and herbicides, which honeybees ingest during their daily pollination rounds, are largely to blame. Of particular concern is a class of pesticides called neonicotinoids. Commercial beehives are also subjected to direct chemical fumigation at regular intervals to ward off destructive mites.
    Genetically modified crops were ONCE a suspect, but there is NO clear evidence of a link between them and CCD ...." ( My emphases + CCD means “colony collapse disorder” )

    This I have known about for many years but many people persist with this debunked myth.

    and what about this;

    http://phys.org/news/2016-01-complex-worldwide-bee-declines.html
    "...Loss of flowers/food

    One of the most important factors restricting bee populations is food availability, particularly in urbanized and agricultural settings. Land conversion to housing, roads, and other human infrastructure restricts and isolates patches of flowering plants. Intensively farmed regions with mass-flowering crops provide insufficient resources for bees which require nectar and pollen throughout the foraging season. Wild habitats are exhibiting similar deficits due to climate change.

    ...
    Flowers are the watering holes of the pollinator world, offering a place for individuals (and their parasites) to come into contact with each other. By experimentally manipulating the foraging sequence of two bee species (A. mellifera and B. terrestris),

    Graystock and colleagues (2015) illustrated that flowers act as reservoirs for parasites, facilitating transmission between and within bee species.

    When flowers are abundant, pollinators select their 'favorite' (most energetically efficient) flowers and therefore are less likely to share flowers with other species. As flower abundances decline due to habitat loss and/or climate change, pollinators (regardless of how specialized they are initially) forage from a greater diversity of plants, potentially coming into contact with many more individuals and increasing parasite transfer.

    ...

    Climate change poses an increasing threat to bees as global warming and its impacts accelerate. Unlike many other organisms, many bees are not tracking these changes. For instance, bumble bees, the group of bees for which we have the most complete biogeographical data, appear to be in a climate change vice.
    ..."

    the bottom line is that there are several if not many causes for the decline and we have evidence for several with the main suspect being reduction in flower population and, although we have evidence of several other significant causes, there is no credible evidence that I have ever seen that GMO is one of them and, at best, IF GMO does contribute to the decline, given the fact we have evidence of all those other causes that can explain the decline just fine (+ there are some other pretty good reasons to be suspicious of the anti-GMO claim which I can explain here on request ), it is reasonable to assume GMO is likely at best to be only a miner contributor to the decline.

    You see, I have done my personal research on bee decline a long time ago by going to the REAL scientific websites.

    As for what I "like to suggest on the topic", if your are interested in the topic, I suggest just reading, like I have done, the above links and learn something interesting new things about it like I have done; that is what I suggest on the topic.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Oct '16 15:43
    Originally posted by humy
    The cause of the bee decline, at least in the UK and at least for bumblebees;

    https://bumblebeeconservation.org/about-bees/why-bees-need-help/

    "...Changes in agricultural techniques have meant that there are far fewer wildflowers in the landscape than there used to be, meaning that many of our bumblebee species are struggling to survive. ..."

    -no menti ...[text shortened]... something interesting new things about it like I have done; that is what I suggest on the topic.
    I only became interested and posted the question and link on this topic days ago mainly
    due a family member. I think our screwing around with the natural balance in nature can
    cause issues with our food and other things. I do thank you for your insight and information
    I will read it.
  13. Cape Town
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    06 Oct '16 16:07
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I think our screwing around with the natural balance in nature can cause issues with our food and other things.
    Our 'screwing around with the natural balance in nature' is a good description for all modern agriculture (in fact all agriculture ever) and is what puts food on your table. Yes, farming causes major issues with the natural environment, and yes, farming could be done better.
    GMOs are hardly unique in this and in many cases GMOs actually reduce the environmental impact because they allow the farmers to use less insecticide or less fertiliser or other harmful products. Other GMOs increase yields thus requiring less land.

    Misinformation about GMOs is spread mostly by people who:
    1. Have something against a particular company like Monsanto for example.
    2. Wish to block trade for some reason (this is one tactic used by Europe and Africa to stop food imports from the US).
    3. Do not understand what it is about and are generally scared of technology.
  14. Germany
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    06 Oct '16 16:23
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I only became interested and posted the question and link on this topic days ago mainly
    due a family member. I think our screwing around with the natural balance in nature can
    cause issues with our food and other things. I do thank you for your insight and information
    I will read it.
    What's "the natural balance," how ought we preserve it and why?
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    06 Oct '16 17:141 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Our 'screwing around with the natural balance in nature' is a good description for all modern agriculture (in fact all agriculture ever) and is what puts food on your table. Yes, farming causes major issues with the natural environment, and yes, farming could be done better.
    GMOs are hardly unique in this and in many cases GMOs actually reduce the enviro ...[text shortened]... rts from the US).
    3. Do not understand what it is about and are generally scared of technology.
    I totally agree with every bit of that. Well said.
    It is often a very important point very often missed by many that GMOs, if applied wisely, can actually significantly REDUCE environmental impact. So you could argue on that bases that all environmentalists should be in general SUPPORT, NOT opposition, with just a few proposed well-thought-out miner constraints of how it should be used, to the use of GMO!
    I think many of them have got it all back-to-front.
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