Cheaper biofuel with the help of acid

Originally posted by humy
I doubt it. I do not doubt some oil companies would think that way but I doubt most researchers think that way.

The 'hydrogen economy' was pushed heavily during the Bush administration. Even at that time, many scientists stated that it did not make sense. The funny thing was that even though they were saying that, a lot of effort was still put into it. I noticed for example scientific american published whole articles essentially saying how bad an idea it was, and yet assumed it was still going to happen.
I have no evidence for who was behind all this, but at the time I did hear there were political motivations aimed specifically at stalling better alternatives.
Have you watched the documentary 'who killed the electric car'?

Originally posted by twhitehead
If both you and I could see the flaws, do you agree with me then that the hype must have been politically motivated - and possibly with the aim of sending research down the wrong path in order to delay action on the right path?

[b]But, regardless of politics and bad motives of many, the fact remains, as soon as it becomes cheap enough, liquid biofuel m ...[text shortened]... e focus of other things - but I am not convinced that it will be abused less than it is already.

-I also don't see why it would be too difficult for a country to enforce a law to ban imports of biofuels from sources that compete with food production but not ban imports of biofuel from more sustainable sources.
This would be a lot easier to enforce than, say, a law saying the other country is not allowed to have nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by twhitehead

Have you watched the documentary 'who killed the electric car'?

No, I must have missed that documentary.

Originally posted by humy
-I also don't see why it would be too difficult for a country to enforce a law to ban imports of biofuels from sources that compete with food production but not ban imports of biofuel from more sustainable sources.

Except again, this would only really be done for political reasons. But the issue is not importation, it is laws about what crops are used for biofuels within a country.

Originally posted by humy
No, I must have missed that documentary.

If you are interested:
YouTube

Originally posted by twhitehead
If you are interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJAlrYjGz8

We had something like that happen in Los Angeles when I was a toddler.

It seems LA had a great electric trolley car system, with those diagonal power holders connecting up to the overhead wires, very efficient and cheap transportation.

So around 1948 or so, after WW2, the bus companies were looking at those trolleys and thought, we would love to sell busses to LA instead of those efficient trolley cars, can't have THAT can we? So they got in kahoots with the oil companies and THEY got in kahoots with the tire manufacturing companies like Firestone Tire and rubber, who had a huge plant near Watts.

So they got together, Bus makers, one of the big three in Detroit, not sure which one, and the oil companies and the tire bunch and bribed the LA city officials to install the bus system, and of course the bus company was thrilled, the oil company was thrilled, the tire manufacturing sector was thrilled.

Everyone was thrilled except the people. It turned out that within a couple years the pollution in LA got so bad the air turned this sick brown green.

I know this for a fact because I got pneumonia at the age of 8 or 9 and ended up at Childrens hospital in downtown LA.

I remember very well, a kid with pneumonia, being driven downtown and seeing the air look this really sick looking greenish brown.

It took something like 60 years to figure out that the trolleys they used to have were very efficient, gave off no pollution, had no rubber tires, ran on tracks powered by the overhead lines and when they looked around for someone to arrest, they had figured out the graft and bribes involved in the original screw job but all the principles were dead by that time.

So now the tracks were paved over, didn't need that anachronism from the past, but 60 years later, they had to dig up the old tracks, fix whatever problems they had, put in new overhead power lines and now LA has its trolley car system back again and the air is really a lot cleaner now. Of course there are a lot more cars but they all have pollution standards so the air is cleaner than it has been in almost a century.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If you are interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJAlrYjGz8

I have just watched it and I am appalled. Looks like major US political corruption as well as business corruption could be to blame.

This is the first time I have heard of this and I am surprised. It seams to imply those electric cars are cheaper to run. Is that really true? and, if so, is there a catch? Are they much more expensive to buy? If they have large lithium batteries, I would imagine that could make them expensive to buy although that extra initial expense could eventually pay for itself if they are cheaper to run so perhaps that would not be real issue.

By the way, I live in England so have very limited info on what normally goes on in the US.

Originally posted by humy
It seams to imply those electric cars are cheaper to run. Is that really true? and, if so, is there a catch? Are they much more expensive to buy?

I don't know about the time of the movie, but today, in Zambia, an electric car would be considerably cheaper to run than a fossil fuel car. However, getting an electric car to Zambia is a bit of a problem.
Yes, the batteries are a large part of the cost and yes this means it takes several years before the savings make a significant difference.
The biggest problem for us Zambians is that most of us simply aren't rich enough to buy a new car anyway, so we rely on second hand cars often imported from Japan. But the second hand electric car is nearly non-existent.
My sister has been trying to get a Chinese electric car, but the language barrier makes it difficult to find something suitable and find out how to get it to Zambia.
She reckons it would cut her fuel bill by about 90%.

Solar has a similar situation. The initial upfront cost is high, and it takes up to 10 years in before the savings start to benefit you. However, I believe you said earlier something about solar being able to compete with fossil fuels in 20 years? The truth is that solar already competes with fossil fuels and you will be seeing an explosion of solar over the next few years. The only thing that holds it back is that initial up front cost. Many people simply don't think that far ahead.
The solution is to have companies that invest in solar by renting them out to people on a monthly basis. The nature of solar (without the use of battery storage) means that you also need electric utility companies to buy your power during the day and sell you power at night.
Germany is already very successful in solar and again I recommend a documentary:
YouTube

And again Zambia is different. Our electricity is hydroelectric and therefore cheaper than Europe or the US. And importation of solar panels tends to be expensive and the prices tend to lag a few years. Also we lack the savings to invest in a 10 year investment, and our electricity company will not buy our power off us. So the recent massive price drops in solar have not really had an effect in Zambia as far as I know.
Here in SA, solar water heaters are quite common.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't know about the time of the movie, but today, in Zambia, an electric car would be considerably cheaper to run than a fossil fuel car. However, getting an electric car to Zambia is a bit of a problem.
Yes, the batteries are a large part of the cost and yes this means it takes several years before the savings make a significant difference.
The bigg ...[text shortened]... ly had an effect in Zambia as far as I know.
Here in SA, solar water heaters are quite common.

I just watched the link you gave. I really liked it! It gives me real hope. And, just think, the solar technology is becoming cheaper and better all the time! In fact, to my surprise and delight, they say they are now producing extra large solar panels that produce more energy than was used to construct them within just 8 months! I obviously haven't been keeping up to date on just how advanced and cost effective it is now!
The righting is on the wall for oil!

I was impressed with the scenes of vast arrays of solar panels covering vast areas of countryside although I could not help to think it would be better to concentrate on putting most of them on the roofs of houses (although I note they already have been putting them a lot on the roofs) and other places where there is no significant vegetation that they could shade out.

I think it is just appalling and scandalous that we are not doing anything like this in the UK but that is just a symptom of the extremely STUPID politicians with no imagination whatsoever and moronic politics we have here.

I was particular intrigued by these "solar islands" that float on ocean and keep rotating so the sun always appears to be in the same direction in the sky (ignoring the height above the horizon ) if you are on the island! That is definitely a new one on me! Never heard of this before!

Originally posted by humy
[b]The righting is on the wall for oil!
[/b]

sorry for my crap spelling; that should have been "The writing is on the wall for oil!"
Mind you, both spelling are illogical.