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Science Forum

Science Forum

  1. 07 Jun '18 23:28 / 1 edit
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/china-challenges-american-dominance-of-science/2018/06/03/c1e0cfe4-48d5-11e8-827e-190efaf1f1ee_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7856c7aef07d

    "China increasingly challenges American dominance of science"

    The USA did NOT really dominate science until around the 1940s, when
    persecution and wars impelled many of the best scientists in Europe and
    Asia to emigrate to the USA. HItler (arguably) did more to advance
    US science and technology (albeit unintentionally) than anyone else.

    Today US science and technology disproportionately depends upon
    immigrants or Americans from immigrant families.

    "In 2016, annual scientific publications from China outnumbered those
    from the United States for the first time."

    "And collaboration between U.S. and Chinese researchers is under threat, he said.
    Recent restrictions on H-1B visas sent a message to Chinese graduate
    students that “it’s time to go home when you finish your degree.”

    "Within the scientific community, one of China’s most successful plans
    has been an aggressive recruiting program called Thousand Talents.
    For the past decade, the program has targeted Chinese citizens who
    have studied at elite universities in the United States and elsewhere.
    It has lured back these foreign-trained experts by, essentially, throwing
    money at them. The program has also gone after a smaller number of
    foreign-born scientists who have won prestigious prizes or made
    internationally recognized scientific contributions."

    "The program has brought more than 7,000 scientists and entrepreneurs to China,
    the government says. They are given a $160,000 signing bonus, and
    the government often guarantees research funding for years to come.
    Foreign-born scientists often get additional perks, like subsidies for housing,
    meals, relocation, additional bonuses from their provincial government,
    guaranteed jobs for spouses and regular trips back home."

    "According to National Science Foundation statistics, China has almost
    caught up to the United States in its annual number of doctoral degrees
    in science and engineering, with 34,000 vs. the United States’ 40,000."

    "The U.S. used to be the best at supporting fundamental research,”
    Zhao said in an interview at his lab. He explained that the United States
    may still lead in education and research, but for entrepreneurs like him,
    China now offers not just low start-up costs but also often money that
    can be pumped in from state research institutes."

    "In fact, American authors of scientific papers are more likely to collaborate
    with Chinese scientists than with colleagues from any other nation,
    according to National Science Foundation data.

    Leaders in Washington should embrace the cooperative spirit of working
    scientists, Simon said, rather than treating China as a threat."

    Of course, the US government has long 'treated China as a threat'.
    For decades, the USA imposed harsher restrictions on exporting technology
    to China than to the USSR (an objectively more threatening rival).

    During the 2016 US Presidential campaign, Carly Florina (a former CEO of Hewlett-Packard)
    declared that Chinese scientists and engineers are incapable of creativity or innovation.
    (Many, perhaps most, Americans assume that racist stereotype must be true.)
    In response, some ethnic Chinese scientists and engineers at Hewlett-Packard
    criticized her racism, even saying they would quit HP if she were still its CEO.

    American politicians and media tend to stereotype Sino-American scientific exchanges
    as cases of supposedly inferior, unoriginal Chinese scientists 'stealing' brilliant ideas
    from superior, creative American scientists (none of whom can be ethnic Chinese).
    So there seems to be a popular assumption that the USA has nothing to
    gain and everything to lose by scientific cooperation with China.
    Will this change if Americans realize that they have fallen behind China in the future?
  2. 07 Jun '18 23:38
    If any scientist or engineer here is interested in applying to work in China under a
    special program to help exceptional foreigners:

    http://www.1000plan.org/en/

    "The Recruitment Program for Innovative Talents (Long Term) targets people under 55
    years of age who are willing to work in China on a full-time basis, with full professorships
    or the equivalent in prestigious foreign universities and R&D institutes, or with senior
    titles from well-known international companies or financial institutions."

    "Awardees as well as their spouses and minor children with alien nationality may apply
    for “Permanent Residence for Aliens” and/or multiple entry visas, the validity of which
    lasts 2-5 years. Awardees with Chinese citizenship will be free to settle down in any city
    of their choice and will not be restricted by his or her original residence registry.
    Each awardee shall receive a one-off, start-up package of RMB 1 million yuan from the
    nation’s central budget; be entitled to medical care, social insurance including pensions,
    medical insurance and work-related injury insurance; and may purchase one residential
    apartment for personal use. The housing and meal allowance, removing indemnity,
    home-leave-subsidy, and children-education-allowance in the wage income in Chinese
    territory within 5 years shall be deducted before taxes in accordance with relevant laws
    and regulations. Employers have to offer job opportunities to spouses, and children will
    have guaranteed admission to schools. The income level should be decided on their
    previous jobs overseas through negotiation with due living allowances."

    The general point is that, if you are qualified, then your standard of living will not decline
    if you choose to work in China. Your income probably will be higher than it has been.
    And your research probably will get more funding than you have known.

    That said, not everyone can adjust well to living in China, so I don't recommend this to
    anyone who's not ready to embrace a new challenge and put up with unexpected problems.
    And the Chinese lack interest in foreign scientists and engineers with mediocre qualifications.
  3. 07 Jun '18 23:40
    I know a white American woman (a lawyer) who loves to travel to 'exotic' places.
    She volunteered to teach English for one year in China, so she could experience living there.
    When she returned home to the USA, she brought her new Chinese husband with her.
  4. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    08 Jun '18 02:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I know a white American woman (a lawyer) who loves to travel to 'exotic' places.
    She volunteered to teach English for one year in China, so she could experience living there.
    When she returned home to the USA, she brought her new Chinese husband with her.
    Ah, so the American government has him under surveillance, suspecting he MUST be a spy.

    I have been saying for years the US is on a downhill spiral and other countries will take up the slack. It won't be long till China outstrips the US in science papers, number of new Phd's and so forth.
    All empires expire eventually. The US is no exception.
  5. 08 Jun '18 20:50
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    Ah, so the American government has him under surveillance, suspecting he MUST be a spy.

    I have been saying for years the US is on a downhill spiral and other countries will take up the slack. It won't be long till China outstrips the US in science papers, number of new Phd's and so forth.
    All empires expire eventually. The US is no exception.
    The DDR (East Germany) had 'Romeo' agents, men who were trained to seduce lonely
    women (such as secretaries) who had access to secrets in the BRD (West Germany).
    I doubt that the Chinese intelligence agencies have tried that approach yet.

    There's a 1990 film 'Forbidden Nights' (based upon a true story) about Judith Shapiro
    (played by Melissa Gilbert), a white American woman who went to teach English in China.
    She fell in love with one of her Chinese students (in part due to his athletic good looks).
    (Hollywood's not inclined to show scenes of a white woman becoming intimate with a Chinese man.)
    Overcoming various obstacles, they eventually got married and moved to the USA.

    A white American friend of mine has a PhD in physics. He's married to a Chinese American
    woman (a medical doctor), whom he met at Stanford University. She's the primary income earner.
    When he held a security clearance, he had to report (which he found annoying) every
    time his mother-in-law (a Chinese citizen) was at his home to have dinner (or whatever).
    Otherwise, he would have had 'unauthorized contact' with a citizen of a hostile foreign power.

    "All empires expire eventually. The US is no exception."
    --Sonhouse

    I expect President Trump (and his supporters) to speed that up.

    There are many more Chinese students who learn English and study in the USA then
    there are American students who learn Chinese and study in China. The Chinese tend
    to know much more (from experience) about life in the USA than the other way around.

    At this time, China's encouraging some gifted people from anywhere in the world to live
    and work in China, perhaps to become Chinese citizens (even if not ethnically Chinese).
    In contrast, the USA seems to pursue a nativist agenda, aiming to make itself 'whiter' and more insular.
    If American racism drives a large number of non-white scientists and engineers to leave
    the USA, then US science and technology may decline more rapidly.
  6. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    08 Jun '18 22:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The DDR (East Germany) had 'Romeo' agents, men who were trained to seduce lonely
    women (such as secretaries) who had access to secrets in the BRD (West Germany).
    I doubt that the Chinese intelligence agencies have tried that approach yet.

    There's a 1990 film 'Forbidden Nights' (based upon a true story) about Judith Shapiro
    (played by Melissa Gilber ...[text shortened]... ntists and engineers to leave
    the USA, then US science and technology may decline more rapidly.
    Trump is no doubt speeding up the end of US power. He has singlehandely ticked off all our allies by now with tariffs on Canada for krists sake and pulling out of all the climate accords and Iran nuke deal.

    He is quickly turning the trust of the US into a laughing stock and I don't know if the US can EVER recover from that loss of international trust in US policy even if he is defeated in 2020 or impeached before then. The trust damage has already been done. He has almost permanently killed international trust in the US.

    The line of shyte he is spreading out now will be felt for decades to come and each decade that goes by the climate gets worse and the US will have worse and worse weather and coastal city drownings and killing the climate accords and killing the EPA will set back the entire planet but will also hit the US where it hurts, our economy.