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  1. 01 Mar '12 23:08
    How dare anyone suggest or even imply that definitions are knowledge.
    Definitions cannot be Science or Knowledge.

    They can only discribe knowledge. Definitions CANNOT be a part of Science.

    Am I right ? Discuss.
  2. 02 Mar '12 01:51
    Originally posted by jaywill
    How dare anyone suggest or even imply that [b]definitions are knowledge.
    Definitions cannot be Science or Knowledge.

    They can only discribe knowledge. Definitions CANNOT be a part of Science.

    Am I right ? Discuss.[/b]
    definitions are not knowledge in and of themselves, they may, as you say, describe knowledge among other things.

    however, it is inaccurate to say definitions cannot be a part of science. i'm not quiet sure what you mean by it. science cannot function without definitions and hypothesis (which are elaborate definitions).
  3. 02 Mar '12 03:15
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    definitions are not knowledge in and of themselves, they may, as you say, describe knowledge among other things.

    however, it is inaccurate to say definitions cannot be a part of science. i'm not quiet sure what you mean by it. science cannot function without definitions and hypothesis (which are elaborate definitions).
    Are you sure ?

    Science is different from definitions. Hypothesises, if made up of definitions, must be not a part of Science. Don't you think so ?

    Isn't it kind of sloppy inaccurate thinking to assume that definitions are themselves Science ?

    Doesn't that sound like something the uninformed would assume, ie. definitions are knowledge ??? Something must be wrong. What do you say now ?
  4. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    02 Mar '12 04:24
    Science depends on precise language in order to best organize its facts. When facts are well organized patterns may emerge that may help in the formulation of new theories. I could hardly imagine the state biology would be in without a taxonomy of some sort.
  5. 02 Mar '12 06:43 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    however, it is inaccurate to say definitions cannot be a part of science.
    It is more accurate to say definitions are used by science, just as language is. Is English part of science? Is language part of science? Neither language nor definitions are science, but they are required for science.
    When a definition is changed, science does not change. One can study the same science using two different languages or two different sets of definitions.
  6. 02 Mar '12 06:47
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Are you sure ?

    Science is different from definitions. Hypothesises, if made up of definitions, must be not a part of Science. Don't you think so ?

    Isn't it kind of sloppy inaccurate thinking to assume that [b]definitions
    are themselves Science ?

    Doesn't that sound like something the uninformed would assume, ie. definitions are knowledge ??? Something must be wrong. What do you say now ?[/b]
    i don't know what you're arguing against. i already said definitions aren't knowledge in and of themselves. that would also extend to science since science is defined as the state of knowing.

    that being said, i already pointed out the relationship between science and definitions. definitions are defined as (among other things) "a statement declaring the essential nature of something."

    the scientific method is based on declaring the essential nature of things (and testing those declarations), ergo they are entirely dependent on definitions.

    there can be no communication, no passing on of knowledge without definitions. they are an essential part of everything concerning human interest.
  7. 02 Mar '12 12:02
    Science is a METHOD of determining the nature of the world and how it works.

    AND also the things that are discovered USING that method.

    Definitions are tools used in science and elsewhere for the accurate communication of ideas
    from one person to another.

    Science tends to have different and more buttoned down definitions than common use language
    due to the greater importance on conveying precise and nuanced meaning.
  8. 02 Mar '12 13:39
    Where does this thread come from ?

    Over on the spirituality forum jaywill wanted to make some point about science being wrong, because Pluto was once classified as a planet and isn't any more. This led to a discussion where it was pointed out that this is not an example of scientific thought evolving, but simply the definition of a planet being changed. For some reason jaywill is pretty hung up on the idea that specific definitions are an integral part of science and that they can be wrong or right.

    In this thread he's trying to strip that discussion of all context, so someone gives him a quote that he can use.
  9. 02 Mar '12 13:40
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    that being said, i already pointed out the relationship between science and definitions. definitions are defined as (among other things) "a statement declaring the essential nature of something."
    If that is the case, then I may be mistaken in my stance taken so far. In my defence, I come from a mathematics background where 'definition' is not used in this way.

    I now see that the Wikipedia page on "definition" does mention that usage:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition#Essence
  10. 02 Mar '12 19:24
    Originally posted by jaywill
    How dare anyone suggest or even imply

    Am I right ?
    Not with that attitude, you aren't.

    Richard
  11. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    02 Mar '12 20:24 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    How dare anyone suggest or even imply that [b]definitions are knowledge.
    Definitions cannot be Science or Knowledge.

    They can only discribe knowledge. Definitions CANNOT be a part of Science.

    Am I right ? Discuss.[/b]
    We need a language we can all understand to discuss science and religion.
    Without accurate definitions of the words used in the language so everyone
    can understand, it would be like the both of us speaking English and everyone
    else speaking Chinese. Even when we speak the same language and we use
    two different definitons of a word, understanding breaks down. That happens
    frequently on the forums on RHP from my own personal experience.

    P.S. My question back to you. Is language which requires definitions of the
    words that are used knowledge?
  12. 03 Mar '12 00:10 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Not with that attitude, you aren't.

    Richard
    Aside from my annoying attitude, what do you think ?

    Definitions in Science communcate ideas but themselves are or are not a part of Science ?

    What do you think ? And smile when you say it !
  13. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    03 Mar '12 01:11
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Aside from my annoying attitude, what do you think ?

    Definitions in Science communcate ideas but themselves [b]are
    or are not a part of Science ?

    What do you think ? And smile when you say it ![/b]
    Definitions, like mathematics, are tools that science uses to ply its trade. I think that's fairly clear, dingus.
  14. 03 Mar '12 03:33
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Definitions, like mathematics, are tools that science uses to ply its trade. I think that's fairly clear, dingus.
    As the tools are being used are they part of Science or not part of Science ?
  15. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    03 Mar '12 03:59
    Originally posted by jaywill
    As the tools are being used are they part of Science or not part of Science ?
    Incorrect definitions can be used to deceive.