1. Standard memberapathist
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    28 Feb '18 09:27
    Determinism is not a scientific viewpoint.

    There is more to be said, So much more that I'm not sure where to start.
  2. Germany
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    28 Feb '18 16:35
    Define "scientific viewpoint."
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    28 Feb '18 18:39
    Originally posted by @apathist
    Determinism is not a scientific viewpoint.
    what does that mean?
    And would it be true or false that
    "Anti-determinism is not a scientific viewpoint"
    and, if so, how so?
  4. Subscriberjoe shmo
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    01 Mar '18 02:182 edits
    Originally posted by @apathist
    Determinism is not a scientific viewpoint.

    There is more to be said, So much more that I'm not sure where to start.
    Do you mean determinism is not the only scientific viewpoint? Because as far as I can see it most certainly is a "scientific viewpoint". One that I use daily.
  5. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 18:01
    Originally posted by @joe-shmo
    Do you mean determinism is not the only scientific viewpoint? Because as far as I can see it most certainly is a "scientific viewpoint". One that I use daily.
    Science is about facts. Determinism is not a fact, it is an assumption.

    What exactly do you use daily? Knowledge of cause and effect? Science is built on that.
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    01 Mar '18 18:02
    Does science say that random events do not occur?
  7. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 18:04
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    Define "scientific viewpoint."
    Yikes! In a word, I'd say testable.
  8. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 18:13
    Originally posted by @humy
    what does that mean?
    And would it be true or false that
    "Anti-determinism is not a scientific viewpoint"
    and, if so, how so?
    That doesn't work, humy. If I said I don't accept horoscopes as scientific, you'd ask if anti-horoscopology would be scientific!
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    01 Mar '18 18:592 edits
    Originally posted by @apathist
    Does science say that random events do not occur?
    Absolutely not, but scientists prefer the word stochastic.

    Based primarily on humy's insistence, I have come around to recognizing determinism as a somewhat useful (although confusing) rhetorical tool or concept, but it's not even close to science.

    Clearly, some people need to believe in determinism. But there's no way it actually exists from the standpoint of a testable hypothesis.
  10. Subscriberjoe shmo
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    01 Mar '18 19:25
    Originally posted by @apathist
    Science is about facts. Determinism is not a fact, it is an assumption.

    What exactly do you use daily? Knowledge of cause and effect? Science is built on that.
    "What exactly do you use daily? Knowledge of cause and effect? Science is built on that"

    Yes, the applied sciences depend on determinism to be useful. There are things which ore non-deterministic, like chaos...I'm not saying it is the only view, but it is at least one view science holds. Although it is probably not complete.
  11. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 19:59
    Originally posted by @joe-shmo
    ...
    Yes, the applied sciences depend on determinism to be useful. ...
    Hi joe. I feel honored. You don't post overmuch, and what you say is always solid.

    But. The clockwork universe never existed. The outcome of a rolled die is not knowable until it happens.
  12. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 20:04
    Originally posted by @joe-shmo
    ...chaos....
    Admit this please. You think chaos exists because of our ignorance. If we had enough information then the die roll is completely predictable.
  13. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 20:06
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    ... scientists prefer the word stochastic....
    What you say is proof of my point.
  14. Standard memberapathist
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    01 Mar '18 20:17
    Originally posted by @joe-shmo
    ...
    Yes, the applied sciences depend on determinism to be useful. ...
    No. The next words out of you were not formed at the big bang.

    We don't live in a giant clock. We are the clock. I skipped a few pages there, but we get to do that.
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    02 Mar '18 07:333 edits
    Originally posted by @apathist
    That doesn't work, humy. If I said I don't accept horoscopes as scientific, you'd ask if anti-horoscopology would be scientific!
    No, I wouldn't ask that. Determinism is a doctrine; horoscopes are not. Please don't be obtuse. Defined what you mean by "Determinism is not a scientific viewpoint" else, if not, you don't know what you are talking about.
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