1. Joined
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    31 Mar '13 05:003 edits
    Yes back to the whats 'safe' in consumer products.

    here's a discussion on another site about using formaldehyde in washing up liquid
    http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091011105014AAEvM7k

    basically it is very cheap, gives a very long shelf life, and is very toxic incl carcinogenic, but you don't drink washing up liquid so exposure is low.

    tbh I say no they should just ban it, they are being cheapskates - its like the sausage that is to cheap to sell. But in fairness if you used it every single day it would probably give you cancer after about 200 years. Its like background radiation you don't need.

    St Johns Wort.... now to be fair it is an effective antidepressant, there are much better synthetic ones, but also a few that were worse. Prescribing it is fine i guess, though i doubt it would get prescribed.

    As i said before you can get pills and a trincture - it boiled in alcohol. the later can be very strong, unpredictably so as you have a plant. Now with a 'good / to good' trincture, strored properly, and a hot summer, let me not mince my words DRINKING JUST ONE BOTTLE IS SUFFICIENT TO CAUSE SKIN CANCER. got that! hippy folks .

    Where should we be drawing the lines with these sorts of chemicals?
  2. Joined
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    01 Apr '13 23:0812 edits
    I'm disapointed with you lot - you will copy and paste out the new scientist and naval gaze astrophysics but when faced with an important scientific question right under your nose! πŸ™‚ ....In fairness I don't know the answer myself but i will make a start - All chemicals in cosmetics cleaning products etc have an 'ld50' (lethal dose to 50% of a population of rats) here are a few

    Sodium lauryl sulfate (soap): ORAL (LD50): Acute: 1288 mg/kg [Rat.].
    Chloroform: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 695 mg/kg [Rat].
    Formaldehyde: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 100 mg/kg [Rat]
    Methylchloroisothiazolinone(dubious preservative) – LD50(orally, rat) = 40-78 mg/kg

    In cleaning and cosmetics most of the ingredients are of fairly low toxicity but preservatives by there nature are toxic - Methylchloroisothiazolinone big name, small molecule has got big question marks over it - you can see in the wiki article, we are the guinea pigs and in a few years it will probably be banned in all but household cleaning products. Why on earth it is in cosmetics at all i don't know.

    Just with ld50s you can pin point chemicals you don't want any exposure to. But they are not meant for this purpose they are just so chemists don't poison themselves.

    I think they should outlaw the 'not tested on animals' label its a deceit, and replace it with 'not tested' - if these companies want this they should label there products as such.

    What i want to see are lc50 tests - dose required to cause cancer in 50% of rats. 3 of the 4 chemicals listed are suspected or known carcinogens - chloroform is banned in the US and has been for years, but its cough medicine in the UK. I would put all questionable chemicals through this, preservatives especially and ban the ones that don't pass.

    Any thoughts?
  3. Joined
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    01 Apr '13 23:374 edits
    With St johns wort its a pity in a way - its like yes you have found the plant in the herbal shop that might do something.

    I have no problem with herbal remedies, anti depressant calming pills. I think it a rather good business. But with st john wort they should scratch there heads and say maybe this one should be a presciption herb / drug - only because of the side effects, It is a bit of a risky product to sell - can you immagine the complaints if you sold a strong batch by accident? other herbs they sell for the same purpose, eg passiflora, valerian are fine - I wouldn't ban it as some people rely on it. Just better as a prescription.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    02 Apr '13 08:016 edits
    Originally posted by e4chris
    Yes back to the whats 'safe' in consumer products.

    here's a discussion on another site about using formaldehyde in washing up liquid
    http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091011105014AAEvM7k

    basically it is very cheap, gives a very long shelf life, and is very toxic incl carcinogenic, but you don't drink washing up liquid so exposure is low hat! hippy folks .

    Where should we be drawing the lines with these sorts of chemicals?
    Where is your data about St. Johns Wort and cancer?

    I never used the stuff but I found this link about it and they don't talk about a cancer link:

    http://altmedicine.about.com/od/stjohnswort/a/stjohnswort.htm

    Here is a video talk about it:

    YouTube

    It says St. Johns Wort has a 5% side effect rate. This guy really likes it.

    He does say don't take a liquid version which can be toxic.

    He says use it in conjunction with some other ingredients. Provanacs is one mixture he touts. This might just be an infomercial.
  5. Joined
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    02 Apr '13 08:0910 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Where is your data about St. Johns Wort and cancer?

    I never used the stuff but I found this link about it and they don't talk about a cancer link:

    http://altmedicine.about.com/od/stjohnswort/a/stjohnswort.htm

    Here is a video talk about it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Q6qHsgrKs

    It says St. Johns Wort has a 5% side effect rate. This guy really likes it.
    look for St Johns Wort and 'photosensitivity' not cancer. It does not cause cancer on its own , it makes animals that eat it very sensitive to light.(so much so it needs to be kept in a black bottle), Then it can / does cause skin cancer - it is a plant based toxin designed to make animals photosensitive - I think you can find that on wiki- there was an explanation on wiki of how this led to skin cancer but it got taken off. I've tried it as a trincture, not realising at first what i was buying - and in bright sunlight it feels like your skin is on fire, used it once and never again.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    02 Apr '13 11:162 edits
    Originally posted by e4chris
    look for St Johns Wort and 'photosensitivity' not cancer. It does not cause cancer on its own , it makes animals that eat it very sensitive to light.(so much so it needs to be kept in a black bottle), Then it can / does cause skin cancer - it is a plant based toxin designed to make animals photosensitive - I think you can find that on wiki- there was an expl ng - and in bright sunlight it feels like your skin is on fire, used it once and never again.
    Wow, that sucks. Did you see the stuff that guy was touting? It had other ingredients to supposedly make St. Johns work better.

    So your taking St. Johns implies you have or had depression problems?

    One time I took a big dose of vitamin B12 and had such a bad reaction I thought I was going to pass out, it felt like my throat was bursting and my head exploding and I was getting fainter by the minute. Last time I took that stuff.
  7. Joined
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    02 Apr '13 17:012 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Wow, that sucks. Did you see the stuff that guy was touting? It had other ingredients to supposedly make St. Johns work better.

    So your taking St. Johns implies you have or had depression problems?

    One time I took a big dose of vitamin B12 and had such a bad reaction I thought I was going to pass out, it felt like my throat was bursting and my head exploding and I was getting fainter by the minute. Last time I took that stuff.
    I watched the video yes πŸ™‚ I note how he recomends a specific formula - search for it n probably find his website!

    But even the salesman won't sell you it as a trincture! he does not mention you should avoid the sun on higher doses.

    I don't know what the effective dose is v the toxic one - i just know a trincture can give you the toxic dose.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    02 Apr '13 18:25
    Originally posted by e4chris
    I watched the video yes πŸ™‚ I note how he recomends a specific formula - search for it n probably find his website!

    But even the salesman won't sell you it as a trincture! he does not mention you should avoid the sun on higher doses.

    I don't know what the effective dose is v the toxic one - i just know a trincture can give you the toxic dose.
    Fortunately for me, I have never needed anti depressants. I was self medicating in other ways back in Venice BeachπŸ™‚
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    02 Apr '13 21:05
    Originally posted by e4chris
    ... , it makes animals that eat it very sensitive to light.(so much so it needs to be kept in a black bottle),
    OMG
    Olive Oil is kept in black bottles! Will that give me skin cancer too?


    (... or maybe St Johns Wart is easily oxidized by sunlight?)
  10. Joined
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    03 Apr '13 03:392 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    OMG
    Olive Oil is kept in black bottles! Will that give me skin cancer too?


    (... or maybe St Johns Wart is easily oxidized by sunlight?)
    i saw wolfgang59 and wondered what wisdom awaits me πŸ™‚

    there is a fairly big hole in the ozone layer near you. if it was not for a few observant folks like me nz might be a bit too toasty for you ...
  11. Joined
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    03 Apr '13 03:43
    i was going to post an explanation of carbon halide bonds and why they are toxic... you could well read up on how they nearly wiped out australia!
  12. Joined
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    03 Apr '13 03:461 edit
    do you realise australia has some of the strictest cosmetics laws in the world to try and limit skin cancer?
  13. Joined
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    03 Apr '13 17:262 edits
    to be nice olive oil is light and air sensitive and degrades quite a lot - but its not relevant, silver compounds light sensitive , toxic, but u gonna eat them? spray them into the air?
  14. Joined
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    12 Apr '13 15:385 edits
    I went into a chemist the other day to get some shower gel and they had lynx shampoo at below half price - checked the back and it was full of nasties, (chemicals that should only be in disinfectant) - you do swallow some shampoo every time you use it so it should not have toxic preservatives.

    One chemical of interest is propylene glycol - when you see the tv adds of moisturisers being absorbed into the skin - thats propylene glycol its harmless - also used as a fire extinguiser - but like acetone and chemists it pulls other chemicals into the skin - e.g parabens can mimic estrogen and that effect would be magnified by propylene glycol.

    If i was going to do thorough tests i'd want to know the effect of suspect chemical + propylene glycol - that should be a test. Some chemicals are harmless on the skin but risky if absorbed (there was a study on sun tan lotion saying that)

    It must be said all these chemicals would only be harmful with prolonged use - but habers law on toxins says thats exactly what happens - a steady low dose builds up.
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    16 Apr '13 02:28
    Originally posted by e4chris
    i saw wolfgang59 and wondered what wisdom awaits me πŸ™‚

    there is a fairly big hole in the ozone layer near you. if it was not for a few observant folks like me nz might be a bit too toasty for you ...
    And what was your part in discovering the hole in the ozone layer?
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