1. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 17:052 edits
    Grandfather's Axe has been in the family for 70 years or so. During that time, the wooden handle has split a few times and been replaced. Comes to think of it, the metal head has become blunt and irreplaceably damaged, so a new head was put in.

    Question: Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe?
  2. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 17:22
    Originally posted by znsho
    Grandfather's Axe has been in the family for 70 years or so. During that time, the wooden handle has split a few times and been replaced. Comes to think of it, the metal head has become blunt and irreplaceably damaged, so a new head was put in.

    Question: Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe?
    I have a computer. The motherboard broke, so I replaced it, I replaced the CPU and upgraded the memory at the same time. A while later I replaced the casing too, and upgraded my DVD unit. Then I changed my operating system to Vista. Now they say that it's no longer the same computer... Is it?
  3. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 17:25
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have a computer. The motherboard broke, so I replaced it, I replaced the CPU and upgraded the memory at the same time. A while later I replaced the casing too, and upgraded my DVD unit. Then I changed my operating system to Vista. Now they say that it's no longer the same computer... Is it?
    You tell me. Is it the same computer? Indeed, are you still you?
  4. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 17:27
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have a computer. The motherboard broke, so I replaced it, I replaced the CPU and upgraded the memory at the same time. A while later I replaced the casing too, and upgraded my DVD unit. Then I changed my operating system to Vista. Now they say that it's no longer the same computer... Is it?
    I transplanted every thing in my body to much younger versions. But when they transplanted my brain I suddenly found that I lost all my new young parts in my body and found myself in an quite older body... How so?
  5. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 18:08
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I transplanted every thing in my body to much younger versions. But when they transplanted my brain I suddenly found that I lost all my new young parts in my body and found myself in an quite older body... How so?
    I do not know. You tell me.
  6. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 18:16
    Originally posted by znsho
    I do not know. You tell me.
    Nah, the interesting part of an ax, is it the metal head or the wooden handle? Where is the soul, the identity?

    Where is the identity of a computer? Is it the casing, i.e. how it looks, or is it the CPU, how fast it calculates, or it is the operating system, what I see on the screen?

    Difficult questions, but I know what is me - and that's my brain. Switch my brains and I'm not the man I use to be. I, my identity, follows the brain. So my soul, my identity follows my brain.

    What I was trying to do was a parallel between an ax, a computer, and a human body (mine). Where is its respective identity?
  7. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 20:11
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Nah, the interesting part of an ax, is it the metal head or the wooden handle? Where is the soul, the identity?

    Where is the identity of a computer? Is it the casing, i.e. how it looks, or is it the CPU, how fast it calculates, or it is the operating system, what I see on the screen?

    Difficult questions, but I know what is me - and that's my brain. ...[text shortened]... parallel between an ax, a computer, and a human body (mine). Where is its respective identity?
    Aha!! You seem to believe in a non-mass entity called 'soul'.
  8. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 20:17
    Originally posted by znsho
    Aha!! You seem to believe in a non-mass entity called 'soul'.
    Figuratively, only figurativley... 😉
  9. Standard memberPBE6
    Bananarama
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    15 Sep '08 20:261 edit
    Originally posted by znsho
    Grandfather's Axe has been in the family for 70 years or so. During that time, the wooden handle has split a few times and been replaced. Comes to think of it, the metal head has become blunt and irreplaceably damaged, so a new head was put in.

    Question: Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe?
    I think these questions are more telling:

    Grandfather's Axe has been in the family for 70 years or so. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (time)

    Grandfather's Axe was moved from here to there. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (space)

    Grandfather's Axe is sitting in the darkroom. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (appearance)

    Grandfather's Axe was sold today to a man in New Jersey. He'll be here to pick it up tomorrow. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (ownership, part of the descriptor)

    Grandfather's Axe makes a great paperweight. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (use)

    etc...
  10. Joined
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    15 Sep '08 20:49
    Originally posted by PBE6
    I think these questions are more telling:

    Grandfather's Axe has been in the family for 70 years or so. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (time)

    Grandfather's Axe was moved from here to there. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (space)

    Grandfather's Axe is sitting in the darkroom. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? ...[text shortened]... reat paperweight. Is Grandfather's Axe still Grandfather's Axe? (use)

    etc...
    The main point of my post is:

    there is probably not one atom in an adfult which is the same as when that adult was a baby.
  11. St. Paul, Minnesota
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    15 Sep '08 22:16
    so you are comparing an axe to a human.
  12. weedhopper
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    15 Sep '08 23:14
    Originally posted by znsho
    The main point of my post is:

    there is probably not one atom in an adfult which is the same as when that adult was a baby.
    unless souls are made of atoms, I'd say you are correct.
  13. Standard memberPBE6
    Bananarama
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    15 Sep '08 23:25
    Originally posted by znsho
    The main point of my post is:

    there is probably not one atom in an adfult which is the same as when that adult was a baby.
    I know what the main thrust of your post is. I listed the ones I did because almost nobody in the world would ever say "you're right, they're not the same!". However, in each case there's at least one property that the axe had before that it does not have after the change. The answer isn't a question of logic, it's a question of how the human brain interprets the world around it. Not surprisingly, our brains have evolved to "track" objects and ideas. Those proto-humans who really couldn't see why Grandfather's Axe is the "same" as Grandfather's Axe being used as a paperweight probably didn't do a good job of using and fashioning tools, etc... and would probably die of malnutrition when handed a Swiss army knife and a can of tuna.
  14. Joined
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    16 Sep '08 12:23
    I think it's still your grandfather's axe only if you see it as your grandfather's axe...
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