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Science Forum

  1. Standard member woodypusher
    misanthrope
    22 Mar '13 17:39
    http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhpvidmod#/video/bc778282-db60-463b-afe7-d07dd994d282
  2. Standard member woodypusher
    misanthrope
    22 Mar '13 17:46
    Don't know why the link doesn't work.

    another:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/swallows-are-evolving-to-avoid-cars-and-trucks-study-finds-8539748.html
  3. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    22 Mar '13 21:28
    Originally posted by woodypusher
    http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhpvidmod#/video/bc778282-db60-463b-afe7-d07dd994d282
    It worked for me. Interesting. I wonder what RJ would say. SATAN is amongst us
  4. 22 Mar '13 21:42
    Considering the considerable influence humans have had on the environment of many species, I don't find it surprising that they are adapting to their new surroundings.
  5. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    22 Mar '13 21:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Considering the considerable influence humans have had on the environment of many species, I don't find it surprising that they are adapting to their new surroundings.
    And of course the big surprise is the speed that all happened. It would be more understandable if say 50% of the population got offed by cars and the ones naturally around with shorter wings could avoid the cars and thus change the species but the amount lost was under 10% I think. That means 90% of the population somehow responded to a relatively small loss.
  6. 23 Mar '13 08:16
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    And of course the big surprise is the speed that all happened. It would be more understandable if say 50% of the population got offed by cars and the ones naturally around with shorter wings could avoid the cars and thus change the species but the amount lost was under 10% I think. That means 90% of the population somehow responded to a relatively small loss.
    If, say, only 5% of the population of each generation of birds are killed by cars, then, assuming that the population stays about constant, it would take just 14 generations of birds for as many of them to die from cars as about the number that would have died if 50% died from cars in just one generation. I understand that it would be too simplistic to assume that this would mean that the evolutionary effect of 5% dyeing from cars each generation over each generation for 14 generations will be the same as that of 50% dyeing from cars for one generation but, still.
  7. 23 Mar '13 08:21
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    And of course the big surprise is the speed that all happened.
    Not a surprise to me at all. It could happen in 1 day if necessary. What takes time in evolution is for new genes to arise and spread through a population. Weeding out unfavorable genes can happen instantly.
    For example, during a plague people with genes that make them particularly susceptible are wiped out and those with genes that provide protection are more likely to survive. This change in genes can happen in the space of months for small populations and years for global populations. Its just that this sort of change, that happens all the time, is less visible than wingspan.
    It has long been known that elephants are evolving shorter tusks in response to ivory poaching.
    But fast evolution is of course most obvious in domestic animals and plants, where we know very well how fast selection pressures can act.
  8. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    23 Mar '13 11:53
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Not a surprise to me at all. It could happen in 1 day if necessary. What takes time in evolution is for new genes to arise and spread through a population. Weeding out unfavorable genes can happen instantly.
    For example, during a plague people with genes that make them particularly susceptible are wiped out and those with genes that provide protection ar ...[text shortened]... us in domestic animals and plants, where we know very well how fast selection pressures can act.
    I think that is the case where the different genes are already in place for whatever reason. I don't think that could happen so fast if the gene pool was less diverse. For instance, genetically modified plants like corn are basically all one clone and if there was a disease it was susceptible to, the entire population would be wiped out in one stroke.

    It takes built in genetic diversity to ensure quick gene changes.
  9. 23 Mar '13 14:22
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I think that is the case where the different genes are already in place for whatever reason. I don't think that could happen so fast if the gene pool was less diverse. For instance, genetically modified plants like corn are basically all one clone and if there was a disease it was susceptible to, the entire population would be wiped out in one stroke.

    It takes built in genetic diversity to ensure quick gene changes.
    Yes, and I am sure that the birds in question had a fairly large range of wing spans to start with. In other words what we are seeing is not the emergence of new genes for short wings, but the weeding out of genes for long wings.
    I have no doubt that over time new genes that improve survivability will emerge but that takes longer.
    But our experience with breeding animals and plants is very clear: if the selection pressures are large, change can be dramatic and fast.
  10. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    23 Mar '13 15:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    It worked for me. Interesting. I wonder what RJ would say. SATAN is amongst us
    I say that there is no evil-lution to speed up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W763lQR0tU
  11. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    23 Mar '13 16:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I say that there is no evil-lution to speed up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W763lQR0tU
    You and your backwards looking cremationist buddies can deny deny deny all they want, every cremationist saying nay to evolution won't change a single strand of a single chromosome that is getting ready to evolve.

    You and your ilk are destroyers of science not builders, nothing more, nothing less.
  12. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    24 Mar '13 01:27
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You and your backwards looking cremationist buddies can deny deny deny all they want, every cremationist saying nay to evolution won't change a single strand of a single chromosome that is getting ready to evolve.

    You and your ilk are destroyers of science not builders, nothing more, nothing less.
    I am a young earth creationist, not a cremationist, numbnuts. I am just trying to get evil-lution put in the science fiction section where it belongs.
  13. Standard member Kepler
    Demon Duck
    24 Mar '13 11:47
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I am a young earth creationist, not a cremationist, numbnuts. I am just trying to get evil-lution put in the science fiction section where it belongs.
    You say evil-lution, we say cremationist. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

    Plenty evolution in the science fiction section. You should try a book called Involution Ocean (sorry, forgot the author), it's good stuff. Now we have evolution in the science fiction section maybe we can put the Big Book of Fairy Tales where it belongs? An incinerator would be a good place and would fit with the cremationist tag.
  14. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    24 Mar '13 15:04
    Originally posted by Kepler
    You say evil-lution, we say cremationist. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

    Plenty evolution in the science fiction section. You should try a book called Involution Ocean (sorry, forgot the author), it's good stuff. Now we have evolution in the science fiction section maybe we can put the Big Book of Fairy Tales where it belongs? An incinerator would be a good place and would fit with the cremationist tag.
    Satan at work.
  15. Standard member Kepler
    Demon Duck
    25 Mar '13 09:28
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Satan at work.
    Even devils have to earn a living.