1. Subscribersonhouse
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    28 Jun '12 14:21
    http://phys.org/news/2012-06-paintable-battery-technique-surface-lithium-ion.html

    You have like 4 or 5 separate buckets of paint, put them on one at a time, and when it all dries, instant rechargeable battery!
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    28 Jun '12 15:27
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://phys.org/news/2012-06-paintable-battery-technique-surface-lithium-ion.html

    You have like 4 or 5 separate buckets of paint, put them on one at a time, and when it all dries, instant rechargeable battery!
    pretty impressive really.
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    28 Jun '12 17:56
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    pretty impressive really.
    Can you imagine, paint your car, charge it up, run downtown and back on your electric?
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    29 Jun '12 16:14
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Can you imagine, paint your car, charge it up, run downtown and back on your electric?
    id love to do an electrical car conversion.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    29 Jun '12 19:50
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    id love to do an electrical car conversion.
    Here is one road: There is already work being done on solar paint cells, paint that produces electricity from the sun. So the top layer could be solar paint, the others would be devotes to storing power. All in the same layers.

    If the car sat in the sun all day, maybe there would be enough energy generated and stored in the paint and you get to drive home for free, no paid energy needed.
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    29 Jun '12 20:32
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Here is one road: There is already work being done on solar paint cells, paint that produces electricity from the sun. So the top layer could be solar paint, the others would be devotes to storing power. All in the same layers.

    If the car sat in the sun all day, maybe there would be enough energy generated and stored in the paint and you get to drive home for free, no paid energy needed.
    I think you are being over optimistic (sadly) about the power capacity of such a system.

    A typical electric car uses about the same wattage as an entire street of houses.

    To make a solar powered car that can go any significant distance requires making cars that
    look like this ...

    http://www.solarkinguk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2-car.jpg

    Which is very light, aerodynamic, fragile, and only holds one very cramped and hot person.

    And that is when running in a sunny desert.


    For something practical for general use you need more space and luggage carrying capacity,
    as well as creature comforts, computers (especially if you are moving towards self drive),
    and the added weight of all the (mandatory) safety features.

    There is a reason why modern electric cars typically have around half a ton of batteries and
    can only do a couple of hundred miles at best on a full charge.

    Although Tesla's latest looks pretty good (the model S) that packs 85KWh for a range of 300m
    at 55 mph.

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    29 Jun '12 22:02
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I think you are being over optimistic (sadly) about the power capacity of such a system.

    A typical electric car uses about the same wattage as an entire street of houses.

    To make a solar powered car that can go any significant distance requires making cars that
    look like this ...

    http://www.solarkinguk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2-car.jpg ...[text shortened]... that packs 85KWh for a range of 300m
    at 55 mph.

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features
    The math says it is using about 20 hp to do that 55 mph. What I was thinking was to extend the range of a regular electric a bit. Not sure how much but you can see if it sat in the sun for a few days it could build up a full charge.

    That kind of thing might work with a light weight RV where you are parked at a camp and just sitting for a week or two, it could charge up enough to get you going, maybe have AC and lights.
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    29 Jun '12 23:03
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The math says it is using about 20 hp to do that 55 mph. What I was thinking was to extend the range of a regular electric a bit. Not sure how much but you can see if it sat in the sun for a few days it could build up a full charge.

    That kind of thing might work with a light weight RV where you are parked at a camp and just sitting for a week or two, it could charge up enough to get you going, maybe have AC and lights.
    Assuming that your car is at the equator, has a cross sectional area facing the sun at all times (that is
    covered in solar panels)
    of 10m2 with an efficiency of 15% you will generate 1 hr's worth of driving at
    55mph (20hp ~ 14.9kW) every 9.94 hrs. Which basically means you get 1 hr's worth of driving every day of
    solid sunshine at the equator (and this is a very optimistic scenario) and a full charge after 5 and 1/2 days.

    It might be more realistic to expect a full charge in about 3 to 4 times that time period depending on latitude
    shadiness of parking space (don't go camping in the woods) and weather/time of year.

    So depending on how robust/cheap/heavy/attractive this 'paint' is it might be worth having to help offset
    things like your in car stereo and air conditioning/heating and marginally reduce your charging requirements
    from the grid.

    But I think that actually running the car in any significant way on self generated solar power is a bit of a pipe dream.

    That said, I can see an argument for painting this on your house (relevant roof and walls) which seems to me to
    be more practical. You get much more surface area and more of it pointing at the sun.

    The same cross sectional surface area I had for the car should for the house provide all its electricity needs (on
    average with storage obviously) and the house will likely have several times that, which you can use to offset
    your cars use and you don't have to expend energy carrying that weight around.
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    30 Jun '12 04:30
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Assuming that your car is at the equator, has a cross sectional area facing the sun at all times (that is
    covered in solar panels)
    of 10m2 with an efficiency of 15% you will generate 1 hr's worth of driving at
    55mph (20hp ~ 14.9kW) every 9.94 hrs. Which basically means you get 1 hr's worth of driving every day of
    solid sunshine at the equato ...[text shortened]... to offset
    your cars use and you don't have to expend energy carrying that weight around.
    It still would give you energy that maybe would eliminate the need for an alternator. There are also improvements in shock absorbers, MIT students built them that generate electricity when the car moves instead of wasting it in heat, they generate something like a thousand watts. It seems that kind of thing with regenerative braking could go a long way to making electric cars more viable.

    Painting the house is a great idea, it only takes a couple of Kw to run, say 50 Kwhr per day or less so you might be able to make money by sending excess power back up the power lines which power companies are starting to pay for now. Or charge your car.
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    30 Jun '12 16:43
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Can you imagine, paint your car, charge it up, run downtown and back on your electric?
    There is exactly zero benefit to having the batteries on the outside of a car.

    Also, presumably these paintable li ion batteries still weigh the same amount or more than ordinary li ion batteries of the same capacity and probably cost just as much if not more.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    01 Jul '12 02:36
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    There is exactly zero benefit to having the batteries on the outside of a car.

    Also, presumably these paintable li ion batteries still weigh the same amount or more than ordinary li ion batteries of the same capacity and probably cost just as much if not more.
    Maybe they weigh the same but they don't take up internal volume so there would be more space to use by the driver. It remains to be seen how much energy such battery paint could store per square meter or per Kg. Probably less power density than regular Li Ion cells would be my guess.
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    01 Jul '12 20:57
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Maybe they weigh the same but they don't take up internal volume so there would be more space to use by the driver. It remains to be seen how much energy such battery paint could store per square meter or per Kg. Probably less power density than regular Li Ion cells would be my guess.
    Yeah but these batteries are not structural, they add weight not strength.

    On the outside they are vulnerable to damage, and decrease stability by raising the centre
    of gravity compared to batteries placed low down on the chassis.

    If you have a fender bender or accidentally scrape against a gate post or tree (when you go
    camping) then rather than just scratching the paint/denting the bodywork you have now
    damaged the batteries powering your car and are possibly leaking toxic/corrosive battery
    fluid to boot.

    Also when the batteries run down you have to replace the body panels rather than just take
    out the battery pack and replace it.

    And when you dispose of the car at the end of it's life you can't just take the batteries out for
    safe disposal before crushing, you now have to somehow scrape the batteries off all the
    bodywork before disposal.

    In an accident (even a minor one) you could potentially get battery acid/alkali sprayed everywhere.

    And given that a typical battery powered car currently has hundreds of kilos worth of Li Ion batteries
    in it and these batteries are likely to be lower power density you are only likely to be able to get
    a small fraction of the cars power storage capacity as battery paint on the outside and so will still
    need a big battery block on the inside as well.


    I am sure there are potential uses for these paint on batteries, I just don't see them as being practical
    for cars.
  13. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    03 Jul '12 20:04
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://phys.org/news/2012-06-paintable-battery-technique-surface-lithium-ion.html

    You have like 4 or 5 separate buckets of paint, put them on one at a time, and when it all dries, instant rechargeable battery!
    Does it come in tartan??
  14. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    03 Jul '12 20:091 edit
    Seriously though. How much does it cost to spray-paint non-tubes?

    edit. It seems to me that in typical science bull they did it once and declared a victory.
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    03 Jul '12 21:32
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Seriously though. How much does it cost to spray-paint non-tubes?

    edit. It seems to me that in typical science bull they did it once and declared a victory.
    What on earth do you mean by "typical science bull"?

    In fact lets go broader.

    What do you think science is and how do you think it works?
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