Originally posted by Jigtie
Touché. I will keep looking. I know I've read about it somewhere, I just can't remember where, right now.

I think you find dogmatic individuals in every domain. High intelligence (ie. ability to perform complex cognitive tasks) often combines with extreme reluctance to depart from the ground rules of a given system.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
This type of generalisation is annoying. Imagine the imagination required to square evolution and theology! Teilhard de Chardin springs to mind. I agree with the premise of this thread: the presence of religious belief in an individual is no indication of their intelligence, that mythical quantum that people speak of as though it were something that co at math' and leave it at that? I fear that IQ tests are a form of secular superstition.

But the opening post was about IQ and not intelligence. I agree that if you want to make a statement about intelligence, then it's not so clear cut.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
But the opening post was about IQ and not intelligence. I agree that if you want to make a statement about intelligence, then it's not so clear cut.

I was responding to your point about imagination. In any case, I fail to see how the presence of religious belief in an individual can affect their IQ score one way or another. Of course there are many more illiterate religious people than not, but there's no causal relationship between religion & IQ. Basically, religion doesn't make you stupid!

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I was responding to your point about imagination. In any case, I fail to see how the presence of religious belief in an individual can affect their IQ score one way or another. Of course there are many more illiterate religious people than not, but there's no causal relationship between religion & IQ. Basically, religion doesn't make you stupid!

There is no causal relation, but there is a correlation.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
There is no causal relation, but there is a correlation.

Otherwise known as coincidence.

Originally posted by Jigtie
Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.

Of course they don't! But of course that doesn't mean anything too.

The guy who proposed what is today called the Big Bang theory was a priest. And in the early days of this idea a moment of creation of the Universe was disliked by most scientists because it reminded them too much of God. Nowadays for some strange reason people seem to think that the Big Bang and the existence of God contradict each other. When in fact, if anything, they just mutually reinforce each other.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I was responding to your point about imagination. In any case, I fail to see how the presence of religious belief in an individual can affect their IQ score one way or another. Of course there are many more illiterate religious people than not, but there's no causal relationship between religion & IQ. Basically, religion doesn't make you stupid!

If there is a causal relationship, it obviously has to go the other way around. High intelligence (the abstract concept, not just IQ - spit, spit) can possibly determine which religion one chooses (including none at all).

For example, it wouldn't be surprising if a more intelligent person would pose more questions about his local religion and choose his own (or none at all) more independently. So would they tend to pick randomly? Or prefer certain types? These are open questions and, of course, doesn't mean that one particular one is "better" or "worse".

Without any actual numbers, it's all just preconceptions anyway. Including the PC view of declaring there's no correlation or if there is, it must be a spurious one.

Originally posted by Palynka
Without any actual numbers, it's all just preconceptions anyway. Including the PC view of declaring there's no correlation or if there is, it must be a spurious one.

Yes.

Declaring that declaring there's no correlation is PC is an obvious preconception. I'm not trying to be PC at all. I simply doubt that attempting to ascertain some intrinsic correlation between the fact of being religious and IQ score is a fruitful avenue of research at all. Whatever box one may produce, it's unlikely to hold the likes of Newton.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I simply doubt that attempting to ascertain some intrinsic correlation between the fact of being religious and IQ score is a fruitful avenue of research at all.

Knowing more is better than knowing less. I've seen people study statistical correlations between subjective happiness and religion, so why not IQ (or other measures of intelligence) and religion?

I think it's natural to assume that intelligence matters for what type of beliefs one has. So the two should be expected to be linked in a causal way, despite many other factors also entering the equation.

Originally posted by Palynka
Knowing more is better than knowing less. I've seen people study statistical correlations between subjective happiness and religion, so why not IQ (or other measures of intelligence) and religion?

I think it's natural to assume that intelligence matters for what type of beliefs one has. So the two should be expected to be linked in a causal way, despite many other factors also entering the equation.

It's natural to assume, but whether the assumption is always well founded is another matter. An intelligent person may make unintelligent choices, such as deliberately not investigating their core beliefs for some emotional reason. I'm sure you can think of examples of exceptionally bright people who nonetheless subscribe to beliefs you might consider idiotic. But let people study what they will. What were the statistical correlations between subjective happiness and religion used for, in any case?

I suppose that underlying this discussion somewhere is the assumption that intelligent people will always use their intelligence wisely. Oddly enough, while I think that attempting to correlate intelligence and religion is bound to be unfruitful, I'm all for studying folly in all its manifestations, religious, rational, as you please.

So, for the purposes of this discussion, I think a good question would be whether religious people are likely to be more foolish than those who are not. Perhaps someone can affirm or negate it with confidence ...

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It's natural to assume, but whether the assumption is always well founded is another matter. An intelligent person may make unintelligent choices, such as deliberately not investigating their core beliefs for some emotional reason. I'm sure you can think of examples of exceptionally bright people who nonetheless subscribe to beliefs you might consider e foolish than those who are not. Perhaps someone can affirm or negate it with confidence ...

Well... The guy didn't manage to publish yet (not very good methodology), so it served for a BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7302609.stm) and a 4-year-old working paper (http://www.iza.org/en/papers/1539_15112005.pdf) to put on his webpage. Academic research is not necessarily with a goal to "use for something" but simply to learn more about potentially interesting topics that might eventually lead to something. The goal is the research itself, I guess.

Your second paragraph hits the nail on the head, though. Again, any metric of intelligence will fail on some particular forms of intelligence, so intelligent people by a certain metric will almost surely not be always using their intelligence wisely. Still, that's again the view of research as a means to an end or knowledge as an end in itself (that others may use in the future).

Originally posted by Jigtie
I'm saying you can't make the connection, as many do, that a religious person most likely has a
low IQ.

Well that is patently obvious from one or two examples of highly intelligent religious people. Even when there is a very strong correlation, as long as exceptions exist one should never make too many assumptions. Everyone in my family holds a university degree and I am the only atheist. I doubt that I have the highest IQ in my family either.

Also, I think it should be pointed out that the reason for the observed correlation haven't
been fully established either.
Again, I fully agree. Correlations can often have indirect causes. One of the most important factors is that religion is generally inherited. In the US for example the immigrant population is more likely to be Catholic (because of where they come from) and have a lower education than the general populace. We may discover that Catholics have a generally lower education in the US, but to conclude that having a lower education leads you to becoming Catholic would be totally off.

Third, I see no reason that just because you understand the process of evolution and the
possibility of one or more Big Bang(s), you can't be religious. Some of the more obvious tales can
easily be discarded, but the core essence on the question of afterlife existence and the possibility
of a creating force can still be considered seriously (if never scientifically).
Here though I think we would find that people who have been taught evolution at tertiary level are far less likely to believe the Adam and Eve story is factual. The question then is whether or not a percentage of them actually become atheists because of their loss of faith in Adam and Eve.

Certainly, anyone I have talked to in depth who believes that the Adam and Eve account is factual has turned out not to have a good science education - but that does not necessarily mean they have a low IQ.

Originally posted by Jigtie
Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
the Universe: Thread 112370.

I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
any way. er.

Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.

Christian fundamentalists have less IQ because IQ isn't in the bible.