16 Aug 09
1 edit
Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
the Universe: Thread 112370.
I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
any way.
Isn't it more likely that (considering the fact that IQ merely is a measurement of your current
knowledge and ability to think analytically) a person with a lower IQ is more susceptible to believe
whatever (s)he's told? Consider that there's a large amount of low IQ Swedes whom consider
themselves atheists. They've been told there is no God by presumably smarter people, and so
that's what they believe. There's no telling what they will believe if they're given the time to gather
facts and ponder these issues for themselves. There's no telling what their IQ's would be if they
did, either.
Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
16 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by JigtieYou're right. There is no correlation between religious beliefs and IQ. According to my opinion.
Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
the Universe: Thread 112370.
I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
any way. er.
Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
Whenever we talk about intelligence, the question arises - What is intelligence? You propose: "the fact that IQ merely is a measurement of your current knowledge and ability to think analytically". I'm not so sure about this. There are people with considerate knowledge, but after an intelligence test has a very low IQ. Savants ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome ) are an extreme example. When talking about intelligence we should be very cautious.
I see Ron Hubbard as a very intelligent person. He is a founder of a religion. I also see many fundamentalists that are not very bright. And among atheists I see people of very different intelligence.
No, I would say there is no correlation between IQ and religious beliefs.
16 Aug 09
As with most ideals that are closely held such a political persuasion (or political ideals I should say) there is no correlation between them and IQ.
I hold that religious/spiritual beliefs are similar to political ideals; they are founded on deeper motivations than rational analysis can reveal. However that does not excuse either from reason or examination.
16 Aug 09
There is, in fact, a negative correlation between religion and IQ.
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm
However, because IQ tends to be higher if you train your mental capacities, the discrepancy may very well be the result of the fact that people with higher IQ's tend to have spent more time studying.
16 Aug 09
Originally posted by JigtieThere are people much more intelligent than I am in all religions. So many of these religions do not agree with each other. That is why I do not hope to find truth in religion. There is no good IQ test. If everyone had exactly the same life experiences then a measurement could be taken, but that doesn't happen. So just let people believe what they want and respect your fellow man.
Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
the Universe: Thread 112370.
I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
any way. ...[text shortened]... er.
Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
17 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KazetNagorraConsider the fact that IQ is not an indication of the entire human intelligence, or human mind. It
There is, in fact, a negative correlation between religion and IQ.
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm
However, because IQ tends to be higher if you train your mental capacities, the discrepancy may very well be the result of the fact that people with higher IQ's tend to have spent more time studying.
merely tests the aspects that are testable: factual knowledge, problem solving, language
understanding and abstract thinking. It doesn't test for wisdom, creativity, personality, social
understanding, and it doesn't test your ability to comprehend the incomprehensible, all this for
very comprehensible reasons.
It's been observed that humans with a lot of factual knowledge tend to lack in imagination.
Humans devoted to observing and understanding the physical world tend to lack in creativity.
Humans who possess the ability to think more logically than others have a harder time
understanding the practicalities of human social interaction in all its irrationality. The myriad of
combinations that forms the human mind makes intelligence as a whole practically non-testable.
Whenever something falls outside our own reference framework (which is a lot even for the most
highly educated) we have three options: to not care, to improvise or to trust other people on the
subject. Therefore, since a higher IQ won't indicate anything about your mental abilities that falls
outside the directly testable, and if you can't comprehend matters that falls within those aspects of
human intelligence, you will have to either ignore them, make up your own mind or trust that
others understand them better. Here's the funny part. We humans, for all our intellectual capacity,
tend to trust other humans we feel we can relate to and understand. Hence, we tend to trust
people whom are equally unequipped to understand what we ourselves fail to understand.
You propose that a higher education will increase a person's IQ, and that it is in fact the higher
education that takes away from a person's ability to understand and embrace religious thought,
but you fail to notice that what constitutes higher education in most of the modern world are
precisely the aspects of human knowledge and mind that is testable; precisely the parts of the
human mind that IQ puts a number on. When you see it for what it is, you quickly realise that
though a higher IQ often makes a person unimaginative, lacking in creativity and general wisdom,
it's not necessarily true and therefore: Lower or higher IQ can't directly correlate with religious
beliefs, as IQ doesn't even test those aspects of human intelligence.
17 Aug 09
Originally posted by JigtieIt's been observed that humans with a lot of factual knowledge tend to lack in imagination.
Consider the fact that IQ is not an indication of the entire human intelligence, or human mind. It
merely tests the aspects that are testable: factual knowledge, problem solving, language
understanding and abstract thinking. It doesn't test for wisdom, creativity, personality, social
understanding, and it doesn't test your ability to comprehend the inco ...[text shortened]... ith religious
beliefs, as IQ doesn't even test those aspects of human intelligence.
Observed by whom?
17 Aug 09
Originally posted by JigtieOf course not. It is a popular ideologically inspired belief among secular people ... and the rational people among us can easily understand why it is so popular.
Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
the Universe: Thread 112370.
I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
any way. ...[text shortened]... er.
Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by KazetNagorraI know I've read about this being noted in related studies on human psychology, but I can't seem to
Observed by whom?
shake up references just like that. Even so, is it any question that the more factual knowledge you
have, the less you tend to even consider ideas that on first glance seem to contradict your previous
knowledge (short of for entertaining purposes such as fantasy literature)? That is what
imagination is, isn't it? The ability to imagine something that falls outside your current frame of
reference, and even seem to contradict it.
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by JigtieThere certainly is some correlation. However, as you point out, that may vary from society to society. I am not sure what your argument is though. Are you saying that one cannot guarantee a lower religiosity with higher IQ? If so, then I would fully agree with you.
Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
I would hope that better education (which correlates to IQ to some degree) also correlates to the amount of skepticism we have and also correlates to our use of science and our understanding of how the world works.
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by JigtieWell, I don't know. It takes some imagination to grasp how such simple processes as natural selection and mutations can cause amazingly diverse and complex life forms, but religious people tend to lack that imagination.
I know I've read about this being noted in related studies on human psychology, but I can't seem to
shake up references just like that. Even so, is it any question that the more factual knowledge you
have, the less you tend to even consider ideas that on first glance seem to contradict your previous
knowledge (short of for entertaining purposes such as ...[text shortened]... mething that falls outside your current frame of
reference, and even seem to contradict it.
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by KazetNagorraTouché. I will keep looking. I know I've read about it somewhere, I just can't remember where, right now.
Well, I don't know. It takes some imagination to grasp how such simple processes as natural selection and mutations can cause amazingly diverse and complex life forms, but religious people tend to lack that imagination.
19 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm saying you can't make the connection, as many do, that a religious person most likely has a
Are you saying that one cannot guarantee a lower religiosity with higher IQ? If so, then I would fully agree with you.
low IQ. Also, I think it should be pointed out that the reason for the observed correlation haven't
been fully established either. Higher education to date means better economy and better living
conditions, which may well be the cause that people let go of radical forms of organised religion
(since it's more in the way than anything else, and because when you don't walk every day under
the threat of imminent death you tend not to consider these metaphysical questions as much).
Third, I see no reason that just because you understand the process of evolution and the
possibility of one or more Big Bang(s), you can't be religious. Some of the more obvious tales can
easily be discarded, but the core essence on the question of afterlife existence and the possibility
of a creating force can still be considered seriously (if never scientifically). If you think about
these things every once in a while you would have to be considered spiritual at the very least
(though you may still label yourself atheist, and though you may still be radically against
organised religion).
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by KazetNagorraThis type of generalisation is annoying. Imagine the imagination required to square evolution and theology! Teilhard de Chardin springs to mind. I agree with the premise of this thread: the presence of religious belief in an individual is no indication of their intelligence, that mythical quantum that people speak of as though it were something that could be grasped and measured.
Well, I don't know. It takes some imagination to grasp how such simple processes as natural selection and mutations can cause amazingly diverse and complex life forms, but religious people tend to lack that imagination.
'He's good at math therefore he's intelligent.' Wouldn't it be more accurate to say 'he's good at math' and leave it at that? I fear that IQ tests are a form of secular superstition.