1. Joined
    21 Nov '07
    Moves
    4689
    16 Aug '09 09:061 edit
    Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
    the Universe: Thread 112370.

    I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
    would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
    any way.

    Isn't it more likely that (considering the fact that IQ merely is a measurement of your current
    knowledge and ability to think analytically) a person with a lower IQ is more susceptible to believe
    whatever (s)he's told? Consider that there's a large amount of low IQ Swedes whom consider
    themselves atheists. They've been told there is no God by presumably smarter people, and so
    that's what they believe. There's no telling what they will believe if they're given the time to gather
    facts and ponder these issues for themselves. There's no telling what their IQ's would be if they
    did, either.

    Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
  2. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    16 Aug '09 09:162 edits
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
    the Universe: Thread 112370.

    I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
    would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
    any way. er.

    Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
    You're right. There is no correlation between religious beliefs and IQ. According to my opinion.

    Whenever we talk about intelligence, the question arises - What is intelligence? You propose: "the fact that IQ merely is a measurement of your current knowledge and ability to think analytically". I'm not so sure about this. There are people with considerate knowledge, but after an intelligence test has a very low IQ. Savants ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome ) are an extreme example. When talking about intelligence we should be very cautious.

    I see Ron Hubbard as a very intelligent person. He is a founder of a religion. I also see many fundamentalists that are not very bright. And among atheists I see people of very different intelligence.

    No, I would say there is no correlation between IQ and religious beliefs.
  3. Subscriberdivegeester
    reality bites
    variable
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86702
    16 Aug '09 09:57
    As with most ideals that are closely held such a political persuasion (or political ideals I should say) there is no correlation between them and IQ.

    I hold that religious/spiritual beliefs are similar to political ideals; they are founded on deeper motivations than rational analysis can reveal. However that does not excuse either from reason or examination.
  4. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3081
    16 Aug '09 11:01
    There is, in fact, a negative correlation between religion and IQ.

    http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

    However, because IQ tends to be higher if you train your mental capacities, the discrepancy may very well be the result of the fact that people with higher IQ's tend to have spent more time studying.
  5. Joined
    29 Mar '09
    Moves
    767
    16 Aug '09 12:54
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
    the Universe: Thread 112370.

    I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
    would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
    any way. ...[text shortened]... er.

    Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
    There are people much more intelligent than I am in all religions. So many of these religions do not agree with each other. That is why I do not hope to find truth in religion. There is no good IQ test. If everyone had exactly the same life experiences then a measurement could be taken, but that doesn't happen. So just let people believe what they want and respect your fellow man.
  6. Joined
    21 Nov '07
    Moves
    4689
    17 Aug '09 09:561 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    There is, in fact, a negative correlation between religion and IQ.

    http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

    However, because IQ tends to be higher if you train your mental capacities, the discrepancy may very well be the result of the fact that people with higher IQ's tend to have spent more time studying.
    Consider the fact that IQ is not an indication of the entire human intelligence, or human mind. It
    merely tests the aspects that are testable: factual knowledge, problem solving, language
    understanding and abstract thinking. It doesn't test for wisdom, creativity, personality, social
    understanding, and it doesn't test your ability to comprehend the incomprehensible, all this for
    very comprehensible reasons.

    It's been observed that humans with a lot of factual knowledge tend to lack in imagination.
    Humans devoted to observing and understanding the physical world tend to lack in creativity.
    Humans who possess the ability to think more logically than others have a harder time
    understanding the practicalities of human social interaction in all its irrationality. The myriad of
    combinations that forms the human mind makes intelligence as a whole practically non-testable.

    Whenever something falls outside our own reference framework (which is a lot even for the most
    highly educated) we have three options: to not care, to improvise or to trust other people on the
    subject. Therefore, since a higher IQ won't indicate anything about your mental abilities that falls
    outside the directly testable, and if you can't comprehend matters that falls within those aspects of
    human intelligence, you will have to either ignore them, make up your own mind or trust that
    others understand them better. Here's the funny part. We humans, for all our intellectual capacity,
    tend to trust other humans we feel we can relate to and understand. Hence, we tend to trust
    people whom are equally unequipped to understand what we ourselves fail to understand.

    You propose that a higher education will increase a person's IQ, and that it is in fact the higher
    education that takes away from a person's ability to understand and embrace religious thought,
    but you fail to notice that what constitutes higher education in most of the modern world are
    precisely the aspects of human knowledge and mind that is testable; precisely the parts of the
    human mind that IQ puts a number on. When you see it for what it is, you quickly realise that
    though a higher IQ often makes a person unimaginative, lacking in creativity and general wisdom,
    it's not necessarily true and therefore: Lower or higher IQ can't directly correlate with religious
    beliefs, as IQ doesn't even test those aspects of human intelligence.
  7. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3081
    17 Aug '09 15:04
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Consider the fact that IQ is not an indication of the entire human intelligence, or human mind. It
    merely tests the aspects that are testable: factual knowledge, problem solving, language
    understanding and abstract thinking. It doesn't test for wisdom, creativity, personality, social
    understanding, and it doesn't test your ability to comprehend the inco ...[text shortened]... ith religious
    beliefs, as IQ doesn't even test those aspects of human intelligence.
    It's been observed that humans with a lot of factual knowledge tend to lack in imagination.

    Observed by whom?
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    West Coast Rioter
    tinyurl.com/y7loem9q
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    24791
    17 Aug '09 18:50
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Consider the fact that IQ is not an indication of the entire human intelligence, or human mind.
    What does this have to do with the fact that the title statement is incorrect?
  9. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    24408
    17 Aug '09 20:45
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Do they? I noticed the little quarrel between you children in this other thread on the beginning of
    the Universe: Thread 112370.

    I find it curious that anyone who considers themselves to be good at critical and analytical thinking
    would seriously support the notion that lower IQ and a belief in the supernatural is correlated in
    any way. ...[text shortened]... er.

    Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
    Of course not. It is a popular ideologically inspired belief among secular people ... and the rational people among us can easily understand why it is so popular.
  10. Joined
    21 Nov '07
    Moves
    4689
    19 Aug '09 05:01
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Observed by whom?
    I know I've read about this being noted in related studies on human psychology, but I can't seem to
    shake up references just like that. Even so, is it any question that the more factual knowledge you
    have, the less you tend to even consider ideas that on first glance seem to contradict your previous
    knowledge (short of for entertaining purposes such as fantasy literature)? That is what
    imagination is, isn't it? The ability to imagine something that falls outside your current frame of
    reference, and even seem to contradict it.
  11. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    19 Aug '09 07:58
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    Am I right, or am I right? IQ and religious beliefs have no direct correlation.
    There certainly is some correlation. However, as you point out, that may vary from society to society. I am not sure what your argument is though. Are you saying that one cannot guarantee a lower religiosity with higher IQ? If so, then I would fully agree with you.
    I would hope that better education (which correlates to IQ to some degree) also correlates to the amount of skepticism we have and also correlates to our use of science and our understanding of how the world works.
  12. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3081
    19 Aug '09 08:04
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    I know I've read about this being noted in related studies on human psychology, but I can't seem to
    shake up references just like that. Even so, is it any question that the more factual knowledge you
    have, the less you tend to even consider ideas that on first glance seem to contradict your previous
    knowledge (short of for entertaining purposes such as ...[text shortened]... mething that falls outside your current frame of
    reference, and even seem to contradict it.
    Well, I don't know. It takes some imagination to grasp how such simple processes as natural selection and mutations can cause amazingly diverse and complex life forms, but religious people tend to lack that imagination.
  13. Joined
    21 Nov '07
    Moves
    4689
    19 Aug '09 08:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Well, I don't know. It takes some imagination to grasp how such simple processes as natural selection and mutations can cause amazingly diverse and complex life forms, but religious people tend to lack that imagination.
    Touché. I will keep looking. I know I've read about it somewhere, I just can't remember where, right now.
  14. Joined
    21 Nov '07
    Moves
    4689
    19 Aug '09 09:041 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Are you saying that one cannot guarantee a lower religiosity with higher IQ? If so, then I would fully agree with you.
    I'm saying you can't make the connection, as many do, that a religious person most likely has a
    low IQ. Also, I think it should be pointed out that the reason for the observed correlation haven't
    been fully established either. Higher education to date means better economy and better living
    conditions, which may well be the cause that people let go of radical forms of organised religion
    (since it's more in the way than anything else, and because when you don't walk every day under
    the threat of imminent death you tend not to consider these metaphysical questions as much).

    Third, I see no reason that just because you understand the process of evolution and the
    possibility of one or more Big Bang(s), you can't be religious. Some of the more obvious tales can
    easily be discarded, but the core essence on the question of afterlife existence and the possibility
    of a creating force can still be considered seriously (if never scientifically). If you think about
    these things every once in a while you would have to be considered spiritual at the very least
    (though you may still label yourself atheist, and though you may still be radically against
    organised religion).
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    19 Aug '09 09:05
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Well, I don't know. It takes some imagination to grasp how such simple processes as natural selection and mutations can cause amazingly diverse and complex life forms, but religious people tend to lack that imagination.
    This type of generalisation is annoying. Imagine the imagination required to square evolution and theology! Teilhard de Chardin springs to mind. I agree with the premise of this thread: the presence of religious belief in an individual is no indication of their intelligence, that mythical quantum that people speak of as though it were something that could be grasped and measured.

    'He's good at math therefore he's intelligent.' Wouldn't it be more accurate to say 'he's good at math' and leave it at that? I fear that IQ tests are a form of secular superstition.
Back to Top