1. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 15:59
    https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2015/07/27/mind-blowing-temperature-fraud-at-noaa/
  2. Germany
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    28 Jul '15 17:01
    Looks mind-blowingly reliable.
  3. Standard memberSoothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    Planet Rain
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    28 Jul '15 18:51
    I think I lost 3 IQ points just looking at that site.
  4. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 18:55
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I think I lost 3 IQ points just looking at that site.
    Truth will do that to some people.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    28 Jul '15 19:16
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Truth will do that to some people.
    It is showing a difference, clearly, but which one is right? I'm sure the climate deniers will show the downward trend and the alarmists the upwards trend. The way things have heated up in the US in the past few years, I would say things have heated up not cooled down. When we moved into Pennsylvania 30 years ago, the guy next door was 94 years old and still kicking, climbing fences, doing yardwork and so forth, spry old guy and nice. Anyway, he told us when he was a kid (19th century!) it was very very cold in town, as much as 20 degrees below 0 F, every year in winter.

    Now it may get to zero but not much below. He also said there was a lot more snow every year, feet after feet but now, maybe every 5 years we get a four foot snow.

    At least around here, it is clear things are heating up.
  6. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 23:29
    After looking at this story a bit [the link in the OP is pretty much conspiracy gibberish so I hunted around]
    it looks like that there are some problems with the way NOAA has been handling this particular data set.
    Although no current sign of any malicious tampering, just incompetence... Which is generally more likely a-priori.

    Quite what the results of these mistakes are have not yet been determined, and figuring out the mess will take
    time.


    However, I would like to point out, that a fault in one type of temperature gathering in one country coving less
    than 2% of the global surface area does not indicate a more general fault in the global data set, which is produced
    by multiple different methods by many different institutions and countries.

    This does not in any way disprove global warming.

    Humans make mistakes, and it looks like a bunch of people have made a mistake or two here.

    However science corrects for those mistakes.

    This is why there I no one single temperature record recorded by one methodology.

    There are many direct and indirect temperature records, all of which agree that there has been and continues to be an
    increase in global average temperature.

    Ocean temperature measurements continue to show a huge increase in ocean thermal energy content.

    Satellites continue to show a significant energy imbalance between energy in and energy out.

    The world is warming. And our CO2 emissions are still by far the most likely cause.


    What this does highlight is the value of having skeptics around questioning things, these mistakes were not spotted
    by the scientists relying on this data. Mainly I suspect because they simply trusted the scientists at NOAA to get
    it right.

    The problem is not that these skeptics exist, it's that mass media promotes them and their message way beyond
    what is justified.

    This is being reported in major national and international outlets as if this is evidence of a giant conspiracy to claim
    that global warming is happening because... I really don't know why... and that this is a significant blow to the evidence
    we have the global warming is happening. When in reality this is not any kind of significant blow to the evidence we have
    for global warming, or climate change. And it's almost certainly simple incompetence/bad judgement as opposed to malicious
    action. However a dry story about a technical screw-up that will have effected quite a number of researchers work and
    will be quite an embarrassment to the scientists involved but is otherwise just part of the run of the mill human errors
    being caught by the application of skepticism and science despite our human failings... Well that just doesn't sell copy,
    or meet their pre-determined agenders.


    The guy who broke this story is not just a skeptic, but a denier. Who is very often totally wrong, and got the wrong
    end of the stick with this story. But as a salutary lesson to those who look at the messenger and not the message
    he did uncover a problem. That others homed in on and might now be fixed.

    It's just sad that this will yet again feed the denier-sphere and hold up action in dealing with this pressing issue.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    slatington, pa, usa
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    29 Jul '15 02:27
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    After looking at this story a bit [the link in the OP is pretty much conspiracy gibberish so I hunted around]
    it looks like that there are some problems with the way NOAA has been handling this particular data set.
    Although no current sign of any malicious tampering, just incompetence... Which is generally more likely a-priori.

    Quite what the result ...[text shortened]... is will yet again feed the denier-sphere and hold up action in dealing with this pressing issue.
    It's like the moon landing deniers, their arguments grow weaker as each year adds to the proof it is getting serious. Moon landing conspiracies just poop out with time when they find no collaboration from China or Russia, both countries know full well we landed men on the moon.
  8. Cape Town
    Joined
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    29 Jul '15 07:00
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    After looking at this story a bit [the link in the OP is pretty much conspiracy gibberish so I hunted around]
    Do you have any good links? As you say the OP story doesn't really tell us much.
  9. Joined
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    29 Jul '15 12:36
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Do you have any good links? As you say the OP story doesn't really tell us much.
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/06/28/the-scientific-method-is-at-work-on-the-ushcn-temperature-data-set/
  10. Zugzwang
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    29 Jul '15 21:393 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse to Googlefudge
    It's like the moon landing deniers, their arguments grow weaker as each year adds to the proof it is getting serious.
    Moon landing conspiracies just poop out with time when they find no collaboration from China or Russia,
    both countries know full well we landed men on the moon.
    But if China sends 'taikonauts' to the moon, then I suspect that some Western media
    will instantly dismiss that achievement as allegedly based (citing no evidence) only on
    'stolen' Western technology. Perhaps some US media will reiterate the familiar falsehood
    that no Chinese scientist has ever won a Nobel Prize (sometimes insinuating that no
    Chinese scientist--being 'racially inferior'--could ever be capable of winning a Nobel Prize).

    The US media and even American reference books have long gone to extreme lengths
    to deny that Tsung-Dao Lee and Chen-Ning Yang, who won the 1957 Nobel Prize in physics,
    were Chinese, insisting that they were exclusively American and completely denying
    they were Chinese. In fact, both scientists were born and grew up in China and did not
    even apply for US citizenship until several years *after* they had won the Nobel Prize.

    When nationalism and prejudice clash with the facts, the facts tend to take a beating in the media.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    31 Jul '15 16:22
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    But if China sends 'taikonauts' to the moon, then I suspect that some Western media
    will instantly dismiss that achievement as allegedly based (citing no evidence) only on
    'stolen' Western technology. Perhaps some US media will reiterate the familiar falsehood
    that no Chinese scientist has ever won a Nobel Prize (sometimes insinuating that no
    Chinese ...[text shortened]... n nationalism and prejudice clash with the facts, the facts tend to take a beating in the media.
    There are certainly media companies clearly biased, like Fox news. If any report came out like that, Fox news would be leading the way. If and when China sends 'taikonauts' to the moon, I expect nothing but congratulations in most media outlets.

    What takes place behind closed doors at the upper echelons of government will be a totally different affair for sure.

    "Space race, renewed' something like that will be happening again.

    I hope this time a renewed space race actually leads to something.

    I worked on Apollo, 'Apollo tracking and timing', two jobs, one of which was the atomic clocks which had to be sync'd world wide within 100 nanoseconds, and a transponder onboard Apollo itself that allowed an exact distance measure to the craft.

    But as soon as the last Apollo landed, 12 men on the moon, Nixon dissed the whole program, 'now that we beat the Ruskies to the moon, a publicity stunt and no more', I am sure were words spoken behind closed doors and that was that for deep space manned travel. So here we are closing in on 50 years later and no more manned flights past the ISS and with the latest mandate from the President, to go to Mars, the Apollo Saturn 5 super rocket had to be rebuilt from scratch, the plans literally put in a dumpster back in the 70's.

    Of course the newest version will be more powerful due to 50 years of technological growth, we are still having to use Russian rockets to get men to the space station.

    Pretty sad end of a magnificent achievement. Personally, I sent email congratulations to the Chinese for their first manned flight, I applauded them.
  12. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    31 Jul '15 20:241 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    There are certainly media companies clearly biased, like Fox news. If any report came out like that, Fox news would be leading the way. If and when China sends 'taikonauts' to the moon, I expect nothing but congratulations in most media outlets.

    What takes place behind closed doors at the upper echelons of government will be a totally different affair f ...[text shortened]... ly, I sent email congratulations to the Chinese for their first manned flight, I applauded them.
    There's still much racist sneering at Chinese 'backwardness' in science and technology.
    Many right-wing white Americans like to focus upon alleged Chinese 'stealing' of American secrets.
    Much, if not most, of the US media likes to act as though every achievement of US science
    and technology should be attributed only to white Americans (with their superior intelligence).
    The tiny (less than 1% ) ethnic Chinese minority in the USA has produced very many,
    even most in some years, of the top American students in mathematics, science, and
    engineering, but this is extremely politically embarrassing so the US media routinely
    ignores it. Just imagine how differently the US media would cover this story if the ethnic
    Chinese students were Jewish or black Americans.

    Back in the 1980s, when negotiations broke down between the USA and China about the
    sale (at an extremely inflated price) of an *obsolete* American supercomputer, a white
    American official (reportedly) told the Chinese that they had no choice but to accept
    whatever terms were offered by the USA because all Chinese were incapable of ever
    designing and building their own supercomputer. At that time, the chief designer of
    advanced Cray supercomputers in the USA was Steve Chen (who was born in Taiwan).
    That American evidently had taken for granted that no ethnic Chinese deserved any
    credit for the achievements of US science and technology. Contrary to what that American
    believed, the Chinese have been able to develop advanced supercomputers, albeit often
    by taking advantage of technology developed in the USA.

    To this day, many Americans, particularly those with right-wing political opinions, like to
    believe that Chinese scientists and engineers (being 'racially inferior' in intelligence) are
    incapable of competing with American scientist and engineers, and so the Chinese must
    resort to 'stealing' American technological secrets and (crudely) copying American designs.
    I have heard some extremely ignorant and arrogant white Americans, who were poorly educated,
    sneer at the notion that any Chinese students could compete on equal terms with white
    Americans at the best American universities. They were shocked and disbelieving when
    I informed them that ethnic Chinese students routinely perform better than white Americans
    at the best American universities I suspect that they preferred to rationalize it as a case
    of 'the Chinese must be cheating again' or have some unspecified unfair advantage.

    The world's most effective drug against malaria was developed in the 1960s-70s by
    Chinese scientists, led by a woman, Tu Youyou. It's taken several decades for her to
    begin to receive recognition in the West, such as the 2011 Lasker Prize in medicine.
    While some people have suggested that she receive the Nobel Prize in medicine, I think
    that's extremely unlikely, largely for political reasons. I suspect that if an ignorant average
    American was told that China was producing the world's most effective drug against malaria,
    that American probably would assume that the drug was originally developed in the USA
    and its secrets had been 'stolen' by the Chinese, who were making ersatz copies.

    I know that the American academic, scientific, and technological communities tend to show
    more respect than American politicians or the popular media toward Chinese achievements
    in mathematics, science and technology. Qian Xuesen (1911-2009) was one of the leading
    rocket scientists in the USA. Theodore von Karman described him as a 'genius'. Even
    the US military authorities acknowledged that Qian Xuesen had contributed much to the
    development of American rockets. But in the 1990s, Qian Xuesen (who was living in
    retirement in China) became the target of a campaign of character assassination by
    Republican politicians and the popular (not only the right-wing) US media. Qian Xuesen
    was accused of having been a Chinese Communist spy whose only aim had been to
    steal advanced American technology that he himself found too hard to comprehend.
    He was even (absurdly) accused of stealing secrets for the Titan missile even though its
    development had begun *after* Qian Xuesen and some other Chinese scientists had
    been traded by the US government for some American airmen who had been captured
    after their spy plane was shot down over China. Although Qian Xuesen was demonized
    in the popular US media, most of his American peers in aeronautics seem to have ignored
    the hysteria and approved of the American honors awarded to him toward the end of his life.
    While he was invited by private American organizations to revisit the USA, Qian Xuesen
    declined on the grounds that he sought an apology from the US government, which he
    believed had treated him extremely unjustly during the McCarthyist period (early 1950s).
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    slatington, pa, usa
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    01 Aug '15 13:48
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    There's still much racist sneering at Chinese 'backwardness' in science and technology.
    Many right-wing white Americans like to focus upon alleged Chinese 'stealing' of American secrets.
    Much, if not most, of the US media likes to act as though every achievement of US science
    and technology should be attributed only to white Americans (with their superi ...[text shortened]... ich he
    believed had treated him extremely unjustly during the McCarthyist period (early 1950s).
    Apparently not every American reviled him, here is a bit about him when he died:

    "Father of American rocketry"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/asia/04qian.html?_r=0

    The McCarthy era was one of the most horrible episodes in American history. Another one was Anslinger and Hoover making Marijuana illegal and the prohibition era.

    3 sad times in US history. A man I admired greatly, Pete Seeger, was blacklisted by the McCarthy era and the singing group he was in also blacklisted, the Weavers, who had a couple of # 1 hits in 1950. I met Pete a couple of times, even played a quick opening act for him, he was a great man.
  14. Joined
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    01 Aug '15 14:18
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Apparently not every American reviled him, here is a bit about him when he died:

    "Father of American rocketry"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/asia/04qian.html?_r=0

    The McCarthy era was one of the most horrible episodes in American history. Another one was Anslinger and Hoover making Marijuana illegal and the prohibition era.

    3 sad time ...[text shortened]... 1950. I met Pete a couple of times, even played a quick opening act for him, he was a great man.
    Do you think USA from that time was better or worse than, say, Iran is today?
    If not - can you compare USA from that time with a better example from our time?
  15. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    01 Aug '15 16:31
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Do you think USA from that time was better or worse than, say, Iran is today?
    If not - can you compare USA from that time with a better example from our time?
    From that time, I would say there was a noticeable lack of freedom of the press, just like Iran, but they didn't kill outright because you published a piece dissing the government, they got you financially, make you unable to hold a job. If it hadn't been for Anslinger and J Edward Hoover and the prohibition era, there would not be the sheer size of the cartels and mafia around today. Before that disgusting era, all that was small time but those two made the cartels what they are today.

    No going back of course but the world is far worse off because of those two people.

    J edgar Hoover, ATT head of the FBI, hated blacks and Mexicans so when Anslinger proposed making marijuana illegal, it gave Hoover the weapon he needed to pursue his sick agenda.
    He was a piece of work, reported to dress in women's clothes.....
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