1. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 20:48
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    You bring up some intriguing ideas.

    But first, I feel compelled to stress that there is a very precise meaning to the idea of "converging to a circle" here.

    In general, if we have a sequence of functions {f_n} -- that is, f_1, f_2, f_3, ... -- that map from a set S to the set of real numbers, then to say that the sequence converges uniformly to a fun ...[text shortened]... here, because the idea is not easy unless you're used to it, but it is absolutely precise.
    Three semesters of calculus, a long time ago, here. I do remember the epsilon delta technique for establishing the limit of a function.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
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    23 Aug '11 21:10
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I agree that it is always a set of triangles at every step, just that the set of triangles gets arbitrarily close to the line. How are you defining the limit?
    But arbitrarily close is not convergence, if you magnified the area it would still be a triangle. If you take the limit to infinity it still is apples and oranges. Each iteration down still leaves three points with the same angles, the same triangle but smaller.
  3. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Aug '11 00:031 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    Three semesters of calculus, a long time ago, here. I do remember the epsilon delta technique for establishing the limit of a function.
    Intuitively the idea of uniform convergence of a sequence of functions (as opposed to a sequence of numbers, say) is simple; but at the same time it can take a long time to get comfortable with it. I searched the Internet for some nice pictures, but for my efforts only found some rather crummy ones. Anyway one explicit example of a sequence of functions that converges uniformly on the closed interval of real numbers [0,1] would be:

    f_n(x) = x/n.

    So the sequence is:

    f_1(x) = x
    f_2(x) = x/2
    f_3(x) = x/3
    etc.

    This sequence converges uniformly to the "zero function": f(x)=0.

    Let e=0.0001, say.

    We could then choose N=1,000,000, say, and notice that for any n>N we have the function f_n(x)=x/n which has the following property:

    For any x in [0,1] (i.e. for any real number between 0 and 1, inclusive),
    f_n(x) = x/n < x/N = x/1,000,000 <= 1/1,000,000 = 0.000001 < e.

    Thus, |f_n(x) - f(x)| = |f_n(x) - 0| = |f_n(x)| < 0.000001 < e, . . . . . . . (1)

    We could do this for any e>0, like even e=0.000000000000000000000000001, and still be able to get a result like (1). We conclude that:

    For any e>0 there exists some N such that, for all n>N and x in [0,1], |f_n(x) - f(x)| < e.

    Therefore, by definition, the sequence {f_n} converges uniformly to f (the zero function). Some books write this as u-lim f_n = f. Uniform convergence, generally, will "preserve" properties like continuity, integrability and differentiability; so for instance if each function f_n is continuous and {f_n} converges uniformly to f, then f can be expected to be continuous. However, the idea of a "path length" (like the circumference of a circle) is itself defined by a specific limit process usually given in either the first or third semester of calculus, and the peculiar situation in the OP demonstrates that even uniform convergence cannot be expected to preserve path length. Additional hypotheses would have to be satisfied above and beyond u-lim f_n = f to be assured that the length of the path f will equal the limit of the lengths of the paths f_n. So the OP stands as a beautiful counterexample of something in mathematics, though it is not a paradox.

    Pi, after all, is simply defined to be C/d, but little headway can be made in finding pi to some specified degree of precision until we settle on a precise definition for C itself. Euclid knew about straight-line distances, but what of distances on curves that are not straight? The ancient Greeks employed a "method of exhaustion" in which a circle was circumscribed (or inscribed) by regular polygons with an increasing number of sides. That's how they settled the matter, and the modern definition for path length is essentially the same. Interestin' stuff, for sure.

    Limits of sequences aren't discussed in three semester of calculus. Usually they come up after about another year of further studying in so-called "mathematical analysis," so like I alluded to earlier the concept isn't considered "easy" as such.

    EDIT: again I'm writing my post in a manner that I hope is comprehensive and may clarify things for a general audience.
  4. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Aug '11 00:04
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    But arbitrarily close is not convergence,
    It is to mathematicians. Physicists and engineers, to be sure, may have other ideas. 😉
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    24 Aug '11 04:56
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Intuitively the idea of uniform convergence of a sequence of functions (as opposed to a sequence of numbers, say) is simple; but at the same time it can take a long time to get comfortable with it. I searched the Internet for some nice pictures, but for my efforts only found some rather crummy ones. Anyway one explicit example of a sequence of functions ...[text shortened]... ner that I hope is comprehensive and may clarify things for a general audience.
    I appreciate your efforts. It seems that you want people to be right for the right reasons, and I like that. The perimeter of the enclosing polygon will always be the sum of the lengths of its sides, and this sum will always be four times the diameter of the enclosed circle. This presents no problem. Do you disagree?
  6. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Aug '11 14:09
    Originally posted by JS357
    I appreciate your efforts. It seems that you want people to be right for the right reasons, and I like that. The perimeter of the enclosing polygon will always be the sum of the lengths of its sides, and this sum will always be four times the diameter of the enclosed circle. This presents no problem. Do you disagree?
    That sounds right. I still want to look at your idea, too, but today is the first day of my semester so things are hectic at the moment.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    24 Aug '11 15:12
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    It is to mathematicians. Physicists and engineers, to be sure, may have other ideas. 😉
    Not trying to be obtuse but how does the convergence happen to make a two dimensional object (the triangle) converge to a one dimensional object, a line?

    That has me flummoxed.

    Is there just an ultimate assumption they converge?
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    24 Aug '11 17:19
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Is there just an ultimate assumption they converge?
    More likely you just have a different understanding of the meaning of the word 'converge'. In mathematics, it means that a sequence comes arbitrarily close to something. It does not mean that the limit (the thing being 'converged to'😉, is a member of the sequence.

    Not trying to be obtuse but how does the convergence happen to make a two dimensional object (the triangle) converge to a one dimensional object, a line?
    Make a triangle, then imagine a sequence of triangles, each of which is half the hight of the previous one. The sequence will converge to the base of the triangle. Every member of the sequence will be a triangle, so the straight line is not a member of the sequence.
  9. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Aug '11 18:19
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Limits of sequences aren't discussed in three semester of calculus. Usually they come up after about another year of further studying in so-called "mathematical analysis,"...
    Misspoke here. Should have said: sequences of functions are not covered in a three-semester calculus course. They come up in "mathematical analysis" courses taken, at the earliest, by junior undergraduates in a technical field.
  10. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Aug '11 18:22
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Not trying to be obtuse but how does the convergence happen to make a two dimensional object (the triangle) converge to a one dimensional object, a line?

    That has me flummoxed.

    Is there just an ultimate assumption they converge?
    For instance, as n gets bigger (n=10....100....1000....10,0000.... etc.), 1/n gets tinier (1/n=0.1....0.01....0.001....etc.).

    It's said that 1/n "converges" to 0. It never gets there, of course, but it gets "arbitrarily close". It cannot converge to any number bigger than zero, because whatever that number is (call it e), I can find a value of n big enough that 1/n gets smaller than e.
  11. Joined
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    24 Aug '11 20:21
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Misspoke here. Should have said: sequences of functions are not covered in a three-semester calculus course. They come up in "mathematical analysis" courses taken, at the earliest, by junior undergraduates in a technical field.
    I figured that. If needed further, I think I can pick up on the concepts you are describing, if you bear with my rustiness. I don't think I've made any outright errors although I do tend to speak at the HS level sometimes.
  12. Germany
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    24 Aug '11 20:27
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Misspoke here. Should have said: sequences of functions are not covered in a three-semester calculus course. They come up in "mathematical analysis" courses taken, at the earliest, by junior undergraduates in a technical field.
    If I remember correctly sequences of functions were covered in the third semester of my bachelor's degree.
  13. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Aug '11 23:32
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    If I remember correctly sequences of functions were covered in the third semester of my bachelor's degree.
    MIT students cover it during their second trimester of gestation.
  14. R
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    25 Aug '11 02:211 edit
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    MIT students cover it during their second trimester of gestation.
    "If I only had a brain" ( Scarecrow, Wizard of Oz).
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    13 Sep '11 10:21
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    MIT students cover it during their second trimester of gestation.
    Do they get to turn in their homework with laptops? Wifi I imagine.....
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