1. Zugzwang
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    26 Sep '14 18:23
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/sep/25/pseudoscience-creationist-schools-uk-accelerated-christian-education-ace

    "Pseudoscience I was taught at a British creationist school"
    --Jonny Scaramanga

    "ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) can't tell the difference between
    science and nonsense obscured with long words."
    --Jonny Scaramanga (who attended an ACE school when he was age 11-14)

    Should any British universities recognise (four do now) the International
    Certificate of Christian Education (ICCE) as a qualification for admission?
  2. Joined
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    26 Sep '14 23:21
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/sep/25/pseudoscience-creationist-schools-uk-accelerated-christian-education-ace

    "Pseudoscience I was taught at a British creationist school"
    --Jonny Scaramanga

    "ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) can't tell the difference between
    science and nonsense obscured with long words."
    --Jonny Scaramanga (w ...[text shortened]... ) the International
    Certificate of Christian Education (ICCE) as a qualification for admission?
    Are you British?
  3. Joined
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    27 Sep '14 00:34
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/sep/25/pseudoscience-creationist-schools-uk-accelerated-christian-education-ace

    "Pseudoscience I was taught at a British creationist school"
    --Jonny Scaramanga

    "ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) can't tell the difference between
    science and nonsense obscured with long words."
    --Jonny Scaramanga (w ...[text shortened]... ) the International
    Certificate of Christian Education (ICCE) as a qualification for admission?
    No.

    Stupid question.
  4. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
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    27 Sep '14 03:031 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/sep/25/pseudoscience-creationist-schools-uk-accelerated-christian-education-ace

    "Pseudoscience I was taught at a British creationist school"
    --Jonny Scaramanga

    "ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) can't tell the difference between
    science and nonsense obscured with long words."
    --Jonny Scaramanga (w ...[text shortened]... ) the International
    Certificate of Christian Education (ICCE) as a qualification for admission?
    It's a difficult problem. On the one hand one cannot recognise qualifications which are based on teaching of incorrect theories. On the other hand one does not want to refuse access to education to gifted individuals unfortunate enough to have had this crap imposed on them.
  5. Cape Town
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    27 Sep '14 16:32
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    It's a difficult problem. On the one hand one cannot recognise qualifications which are based on teaching of incorrect theories. On the other hand one does not want to refuse access to education to gifted individuals unfortunate enough to have had this crap imposed on them.
    Its a question of what is being recognized and why. Does the recognition imply the students have prerequisite skills for a given university course? Does the recognition imply the student is a good learner and can do better at university than other students without qualifications?
    I would say that in the former case, it might be a problem in that the university will have to spend extra effort not only teaching things that should already have been learnt, but also unteaching things that shouldn't have been learnt.
  6. Zugzwang
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    27 Sep '14 20:313 edits
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    No.
    Stupid question.
    Even though I strongly disapprove of 'Christian education' as it pertains to
    science, I think that DeepThought and Twhitehead have recognised that
    this situation is more complex and nuanced than Googlefudge assumes.

    Let's consider an intelligent child whose devout Christian parents decided to
    enroll one in a 'British creationist school', where one was taught pseudoscience.
    I would say that this student's 'Christian education' has not made one well-prepared
    to study science, yet it may have made one adequately prepared to study other
    subjects. And if this student is exposed to real science education in a secular
    university, then one could unlearn the nonsense of one's earlier education.
    Indeed, I have known some persons who were brought up as 'Christian
    fundamentalists', learning various forms of nonsense, who later came to
    realize they had been taught nonsense and sometimes became atheists.

    On the other hand, I also knew a young woman who attended state schools
    and, as a devout Christian, refused to accept the theory of evolution. Yet she
    still intended to study biology at university before pursuing a career in medicine.
    I don't know if she succeeded. After discovering that I'm an atheist, she told
    me that she never wished to speak with me again, so our friendship ended.

    So to what extent should a student be judged or penalized because one's
    parents did not know or care about the pseudoscience of 'Christian education'?
  7. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    27 Sep '14 21:04
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Even though I strongly disapprove of 'Christian education' as it pertains to
    science, I think that DeepThought and Twhitehead have recognised that
    this situation is more complex and nuanced than Googlefudge assumes.

    Let's consider an intelligent child whose devout Christian parents decided to
    enroll one in a 'British creationist school', where one wa ...[text shortened]... ed because one's
    parents did not know or care about the pseudoscience of 'Christian education'?
    I had a similar experience, having attended the First Lutheran School in El Monte, California from 1 to 8 th grade.

    We were fed a lot of nonsense in science but we learned a lot of other skills, like algebra by grade 7 and so forth.

    So by freshman year of HS, all that nonsense was paved over and forgotten.
  8. Joined
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    28 Sep '14 16:24
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Even though I strongly disapprove of 'Christian education' as it pertains to
    science, I think that DeepThought and Twhitehead have recognised that
    this situation is more complex and nuanced than Googlefudge assumes.

    Let's consider an intelligent child whose devout Christian parents decided to
    enroll one in a 'British creationist school', where one wa ...[text shortened]... ed because one's
    parents did not know or care about the pseudoscience of 'Christian education'?
    No school should be permitted to teach ACE.

    Nobody should accept it as a qualification.

    Period.

    People who have been abused by subjecting them to such trash should
    be given the opportunity to catch up on the education they missed.

    Which should be paid for by fining the morons who teach this nonsense
    more money then they have and bankrupting them out of existence.

    Teaching this nonsense is child abuse and shouldn't be tolerated or condoned.

    It's really that simple.

    Claiming otherwise is to become a hand wringing moral subjectivist.

    What ACE teaches is factually wrong.

    Saying that universities should accept such a 'qualification' is moronic.

    But then I don't expect anything better from you.

    Finally. Take it to spirituality.

    This isn't a science topic.
  9. Joined
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    28 Sep '14 16:29
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    It's a difficult problem. On the one hand one cannot recognise qualifications which are based on teaching of incorrect theories. On the other hand one does not want to refuse access to education to gifted individuals unfortunate enough to have had this crap imposed on them.
    You can help gifted individuals without accepting that ACE is a valid
    qualification.

    And in the big picture, by not accepting it as a valid qualification you
    provide a strong incentive for parents not to send their kids to schools
    that teach it. As they will leave with no recognised qualifications.
    [Personally I wouldn't permit any schools to teach such nonsense in
    the first place].

    Otherwise what you are saying is "we accept ACE as a valid qualification
    but its useless so have some extra education to teach you all the stuff
    it missed out or lied to you about". Which is nonsensical.
  10. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    29 Sep '14 18:19
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    You can help gifted individuals without accepting that ACE is a valid
    qualification.

    And in the big picture, by not accepting it as a valid qualification you
    provide a strong incentive for parents not to send their kids to schools
    that teach it. As they will leave with no recognised qualifications.
    [Personally I wouldn't permit any schools to t ...[text shortened]... ducation to teach you all the stuff
    it missed out or lied to you about". Which is nonsensical.
    If the parents are so stupid as to believe men walked with dinosaurs, they probably would send their kids to those Christian fundie schools anyway. They wouldn't let such a minor detail as accreditation issues be an impediment to the one TRUE education. "Those kids don't need anything more than 8th grade education anyway''.....
  11. Zugzwang
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    29 Sep '14 21:092 edits
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    No school should be permitted to teach ACE.

    Nobody should accept it as a qualification.

    Period.

    People who have been abused by subjecting them to such trash should
    be given the opportunity to catch up on the education they missed.

    Which should be paid for by fining the morons who teach this nonsense
    more money then they have and bankrupti ...[text shortened]... ct anything better from you.

    Finally. Take it to spirituality.

    This isn't a science topic.
    As an atheist, I disapprove of education based upon promoting religion.
    If Googlefudge were the Supreme Leader, then he might have the power
    to ban all Christian education, if not also Christianity itself. (When some
    regimes have attempted to eliminate Christianity by force, they have failed.)

    In the meantime, however, I happen to be in a real world where not only are
    many children being enrolled in Christian schools but also there are more
    than a few qualified professional people who hold Christian beliefs that I reject.
    I know, for instance, a lecturer, who does not accept the theory of evolution,
    at a major Catholic university, and I can say that, apart from our religious
    and political differences, he's generally a thoughtful person on most issues.
    I know a doctor who holds some Christian beliefs that I consider nonsense,
    yet I cannot say that I know that he's unqualified to practise medicine.

    While I believe that 'Christian education' does harm in teaching pseudoscience,
    I don't believe that it therefore it must offer no benefits in other ways.
    I believe that a flawed education tends to be better than no education at all.
    Should Afghan girls be sent to Islamic schools where they will learn how to
    read and write in addition to being instructed to be devout Muslims? I would
    prefer that these girls be sent to secular schools, but if their parents insist
    they must attend such Islamic schools or none at all, then I would prefer that
    these girls at least have the opportunity to learn how to read and write.

    If a student with an ICCE (International Certificate of Christian Education)
    applied to a university in order to study music and become a music teacher,
    then would one necessarily be less qualified than one with a secular education?
  12. Zugzwang
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    29 Sep '14 21:16
    Originally posted by sonhouse to googlefudge
    If the parents are so stupid as to believe men walked with dinosaurs, they probably would send their kids to those Christian fundie schools anyway. They wouldn't let such a minor detail as accreditation issues be an impediment to the one TRUE education. "Those kids don't need anything more than 8th grade education anyway''.....
    There are some non-Christian parents who have sent their children to
    Christian schools (not necessarily 'Christian fundamentalist' schools)
    because they believe those schools have higher academic standards
    or offer a more safe or disciplined environment for their children.

    At a Christian school, a Jewish girl said that other students liked to ask her to adjudicate
    their arguments about Christianity because they assumed she was more objective.
  13. Cape Town
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    30 Sep '14 05:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    If a student with an ICCE (International Certificate of Christian Education)
    applied to a university in order to study music and become a music teacher,
    then would one necessarily be less qualified than one with a secular education?
    I think googlefudge has a point that recognizing a qualification, or refusing to do so, may have an effect on the desirability of these schools. I think the solution might be to partially recognize them ie the university could officially state that the qualification is recognized for certain subjects but not for science.
    Here in SA, although I believe you can get a general certificate for completing grade 12, ('O' levels), the universities actually look at your grades in given subjects before deciding to accept you for a given course. So for example, to do engineering you must have good grades in mathematics.
  14. Zugzwang
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    30 Sep '14 17:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I think googlefudge has a point that recognizing a qualification, or refusing to do so, may have an effect on the desirability of these schools. I think the solution might be to partially recognize them ie the university could officially state that the qualification is recognized for certain subjects but not for science.
    Here in SA, although I believe yo ...[text shortened]... for a given course. So for example, to do engineering you must have good grades in mathematics.
    According to the article cited in my original post, only four British universities
    (which is a small minority) recognise the ICCE as a qualification for admission.
    I don't think that the ICCE should be accepted as a qualification for studying
    a subject in which a sound knowledge of science is important and ACE falls
    significantly beneath the normal accepted standards of science education.
    It's possible, however, for someone not to accept the theory of evolution
    and do well enough in mathematics to become a competent engineer.

    Googlefudge's position evidently is much more dogmatic and sweeping.
    Given that ACE teaches some pseudoscience, he believes all ACE must be
    rejected as worthless. In the USSR, students also used to be taught some
    pseudoscience (Lysenkoism) as well as nonsense about history, but that did
    not stop the development of many able Soviet scientists.
  15. Cape Town
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    01 Oct '14 06:42
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Googlefudge's position evidently is much more dogmatic and sweeping.
    Given that ACE teaches some pseudoscience, he believes all ACE must be
    rejected as worthless. In the USSR, students also used to be taught some
    pseudoscience (Lysenkoism) as well as nonsense about history, but that did
    not stop the development of many able Soviet scientists.
    He is not saying the ACE should be rejected as worthless, he is saying it should not be given any official recognition. Similarly, if a soviet student has a qualification based on a history course which contained significant amounts of false history, then that qualification should not be recognized - even if the student in question is perfectly capable of being a good scientist, or a good historian.
    A student who presents an ACE certificate to an institution should be told that it is not evidence that he has any worthwhile scientific knowledge. It may be accepted, depending on the actual courses involved as evidence that he has some knowledge in other subjects such as English literature, or Art.
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