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Science Forum

  1. 27 Apr '14 20:00
    I'm really not up to date on physics and Penguin suggested in the spirituality
    forum that particles can pop into existence without cause. Does anyone here
    know how quantum vacuum works, or can point me in the right direction, for a
    good introductory? I know my chemistry and biology, but I'm really not good at
    physics.
  2. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    27 Apr '14 20:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by C Hess
    I'm really not up to date on physics and Penguin suggested in the spirituality
    forum that particles can pop into existence without cause. Does anyone here
    know how quantum vacuum works, or can point me in the right direction, for a
    good introductory? I know my chemistry and biology, but I'm really not good at
    physics.
    The 50 cent tour says because of the uncertainty principle, there is still activity at absolute zero temperature. And since you can't get a good handle on the mass of a particle if you know exactly where it is and vice versa, it means (and has been proven as something real) that particles flash into and out of existence in an extremely short span of time.

    Google "Casimir effect' which shows a small non gravitational effect pulling two sheets of matter together at sufficiently close distance due to an effect whereby matter tends to wall off the generation of these particles so between the plates there is a smaller number of particles coming into and exiting existence than the space outside the sheets so there is a gentle push trying to close the distance between the sheets.

    This effect was predicted by Casimir decades ago but was just experimentally seen a few years ago due to the difficulty in isolating all the forces involved, like electric, magnetic, gravity and so forth.

    Here is a Wiki about it, nice graphics.:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
  3. 28 Apr '14 03:18
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
    Is anybody able to make the 'sonicator' video run at that link?
  4. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    28 Apr '14 04:31
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Is anybody able to make the 'sonicator' video run at that link?
    This one?:

    http://www.sonicator.com/18-q700-sonicator.html
  5. 28 Apr '14 05:34
    Perhaps the concept of virtual particles will help you understand what's going on:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
  6. 28 Apr '14 11:27
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The 50 cent tour says because of the uncertainty principle, there is still activity at absolute zero temperature. And since you can't get a good handle on the mass of a particle if you know exactly where it is and vice versa, it means (and has been proven as something real) that particles flash into and out of existence in an extremely short span of time.
    ...[text shortened]... orth.

    Here is a Wiki about it, nice graphics.:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
    That's some heavy reading. It should keep me occupied a while. Thank you.
  7. 28 Apr '14 11:27
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Perhaps the concept of virtual particles will help you understand what's going on:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
    Thank you.
  8. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    28 Apr '14 15:13
    Originally posted by C Hess
    That's some heavy reading. It should keep me occupied a while. Thank you.
    I have often wondered if you could get free energy from the vacuum using the Casimir force, just thinking in terms of some kind of double flap affair where flaps are attracted to each other and transferring that torque to a shaft, something like that.

    Most likely totally half baked but it would be interesting to see if at least some kind of scheme like that could happen that would not go against some of the laws of physics, like conservation of momentum or entropy.

    It seems if any kind of engine were made like that, there would be an imbalance in the energy budget of the universe, going against entropy.
  9. 28 Apr '14 16:24
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I have often wondered if you could get free energy from the vacuum using the Casimir force, just thinking in terms of some kind of double flap affair where flaps are attracted to each other and transferring that torque to a shaft, something like that.

    Most likely totally half baked but it would be interesting to see if at least some kind of scheme like ...[text shortened]... e that, there would be an imbalance in the energy budget of the universe, going against entropy.
    Quite possibly creating a tear in the spacetime continuum, sucking in all matter from our
    universe into the next where anti-matter is the dominant form of matter, causing a huge
    annilihation chain of events!!!

    From what I understand so far, there's not that much force involved. So, you would need
    quite a few of them casimir devices to drive a useful engine? Perhaps they could be used
    to generate electricity, if you had enough of them in small scale?
  10. 28 Apr '14 16:53
    Originally posted by C Hess
    Quite possibly creating a tear in the spacetime continuum, sucking in all matter from our
    universe into the next where anti-matter is the dominant form of matter, causing a huge
    annilihation chain of events!!!

    From what I understand so far, there's not that much force involved. So, you would need
    quite a few of them casimir devices to drive a u ...[text shortened]... Perhaps they could be used
    to generate electricity, if you had enough of them in small scale?
    Nope. Sorry.

    All current theories [to my knowledge] say that extracting energy from the vacuum
    takes more energy than you get out and generates an equal and opposing amount of
    negative energy... And you have to supply energy to keep the negative energy from
    cancelling out the positive.
  11. 28 Apr '14 18:27
    Originally posted by C Hess
    Quite possibly creating a tear in the spacetime continuum, sucking in all matter from our
    universe into the next where anti-matter is the dominant form of matter, causing a huge
    annilihation chain of events!!!

    From what I understand so far, there's not that much force involved. So, you would need
    quite a few of them casimir devices to drive a u ...[text shortened]... Perhaps they could be used
    to generate electricity, if you had enough of them in small scale?
    The Casimir force can equivalently be described in terms of van der Waals forces - the same kind of force that helps glue stick to surfaces. Making an engine based on this principle would be about as straightforward as using the sticking force of glue to drive an engine, i.e. absolutely hopeless.
  12. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    28 Apr '14 19:06
    Originally posted by C Hess
    Quite possibly creating a tear in the spacetime continuum, sucking in all matter from our
    universe into the next where anti-matter is the dominant form of matter, causing a huge
    annilihation chain of events!!!

    From what I understand so far, there's not that much force involved. So, you would need
    quite a few of them casimir devices to drive a u ...[text shortened]... Perhaps they could be used
    to generate electricity, if you had enough of them in small scale?
    No this won't work at all. sonhouse's set up would just act like a pendulum, as the flaps moves towards and away from one another. You set up the Casimir effect by putting two conductive (ideally super-conductive) plates close to each other and there is a measurable force between them. The vacuum state of the entire set-up means that energy is stored in the system. You can pull the plates apart to store energy and let them pull together to extract it (I think it's that way round), but you can't get any energy out that you didn't put in in the first place. Just by setting up the system one provides the energy for the vacuum one is creating. All you can make with the Casimir effect is a battery.
  13. 28 Apr '14 19:37
    Damn! This is so beyond my understanding it's silly for me to even make a comment. I'll just read and study for now.
  14. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    29 Apr '14 14:36
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    No this won't work at all. sonhouse's set up would just act like a pendulum, as the flaps moves towards and away from one another. You set up the Casimir effect by putting two conductive (ideally super-conductive) plates close to each other and there is a measurable force between them. The vacuum state of the entire set-up means that energy is ...[text shortened]... energy for the vacuum one is creating. All you can make with the Casimir effect is a battery.
    I was also thinking along those lines, I was just projecting my wishful thinking