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Science Forum

  1. Standard member menace71
    Can't win a game of
    26 Jan '14 18:43
    The whole free energy / Zero point energy and being able to harness it if it is real? I understand that some law is violated in theory and so it is said to be impossible. Also confusion over closed system and a true open system that receives it energy from it's surroundings (whatever that maybe) I've noticed there are a bunch of crackpots on youtube so it is hard to discern the truth about the subject.

    Manny
  2. 26 Jan '14 19:09
    Roughly speaking, when you want to do work, it's not the energy itself that is relevant, but the energy difference between two states or systems.

    Zero-point energy can be thought of as a consequence of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; since the ground state of a system cannot have a precisely determined position, particles must still be moving. Currently there does not appear to be a serious or credible proposal for extracting zero-point energy in a useful way.

    Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy#Utilization_controversy
  3. Standard member menace71
    Can't win a game of
    27 Jan '14 04:32
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Roughly speaking, when you want to do work, it's not the energy itself that is relevant, but the energy difference between two states or systems.

    Zero-point energy can be thought of as a consequence of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; since the ground state of a system cannot have a precisely determined position, particles must still be moving. Cu ...[text shortened]... useful way.

    Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy#Utilization_controversy
    Thanks the equations are above my head but I think I get it. A system can never be at complete rest even trying to measure the system will change the outcome. Plus always a resonate energy. I see all of these crackpots saying they have built free energy motors and the idea seems intriguing but to be useful in everyday applications not possible.

    Manny
  4. Standard member menace71
    Can't win a game of
    27 Jan '14 05:09
    http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html



    Manny
  5. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    27 Jan '14 05:53
    Originally posted by menace71
    Thanks the equations are above my head but I think I get it. A system can never be at complete rest even trying to measure the system will change the outcome. Plus always a resonate energy. I see all of these crackpots saying they have built free energy motors and the idea seems intriguing but to be useful in everyday applications not possible.

    Manny
    It is like someone doing a magic trick. It ain't real.
  6. 27 Jan '14 08:14
    Originally posted by menace71
    I see all of these crackpots saying they have built free energy motors and the idea seems intriguing but to be useful in everyday applications not possible.
    There is a very easy test for any claim of this nature. Did the 'crackpot' in question post a youtube video, or did he try to get a patent or approach investors/companies etc to invest in his idea.
    And also, has he already disconnected his house from the electricity supply and currently running off free energy.

    This is similar to the way one tests any claims made by creationists. You check whether they have produced a youtube video, or if they have successfully published an article in a peer reviewed science journal.
  7. 27 Jan '14 08:46 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    There is a very easy test for any claim of this nature. Did the 'crackpot' in question post a youtube video, or did he try to get a patent or approach investors/companies etc to invest in his idea.
    And also, has he already disconnected his house from the electricity supply and currently running off free energy.

    This is similar to the way one tests any ...[text shortened]... ube video, or if they have successfully published an article in a peer reviewed science journal.
    if such a 'crackpot' built 'free energy motors' it would surely be headline news and we would have to be all deaf and blind not to already know about it for getting energy out of nothing would be a big deal.
    My easy test would be merely to observe and note whether this is the case. Obviously, the 'crackpot' fails my test so would be judged to be a real crackpot.

    But, although the chances of it being possible to extract zero point energy out of free space must surely be minute, the rewards for finding a way (I guess it would have to be an extremely clever way to get around the laws of physics! ) would be so fantastically great, it may be still worth doing research into it just in case there is a way for that would mean free unlimited energy. I would call such research an example of what I would call "long shot research" -research with extremely low chances of successes but considered worth doing anyway because of the massive potential rewards if successful. Another possible long shot research would be into warp drive or other faster-than-light means of travel.
  8. Standard member menace71
    Can't win a game of
    27 Jan '14 20:30
    It sounds like Zero point energy is real but it's not like some average Joe is going to make a device in his garage on the weekend that's going to run off of it. LOL It sounds like theoretically it could explain the dark energy pushing the universes expansion.


    Manny
  9. Standard member menace71
    Can't win a game of
    27 Jan '14 20:36
    Basically atoms have a resonate energy and will always have energy even at their most basic energy state or lowest state. Does this tie in with string theory? It must.


    Manny
  10. 28 Jan '14 20:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    Basically atoms have a resonate energy and will always have energy even at their most basic energy state or lowest state. Does this tie in with string theory? It must.


    Manny
    This has nothing to do with string theory, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle comes from the axioms of quantum mechanics, where particles are described as wave-like.

    Of course it is possible that string theory may be a more general theory than our current quantum theory.

    Edit: it also has nothing to do with dark energy.
  11. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    28 Jan '14 20:23
    Originally posted by menace71
    It sounds like Zero point energy is real but it's not like some average Joe is going to make a device in his garage on the weekend that's going to run off of it. LOL It sounds like theoretically it could explain the dark energy pushing the universes expansion.


    Manny
    My guess is if they actually get zero point energy it will be in nanowatts not megawatts and as such would remain a curiosity.