1. Joined
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    06 Dec '17 21:46
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    Try breathing CO2 and see what heppens, just like breathing N2 or Ar2, not poisonous either.
    Don't forget oxygen.

    Toxicity always has been, and always will be, about dose.
  2. Joined
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    06 Dec '17 21:596 edits
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    There are plenty of products that are needlessly inefficient that can be made much more efficient. This could be done now and it makes sense, but even the leftists in government have no will to do so. Why are they sitting back and letting all this electricity go to waste?

    http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/energy-efficiency/not-in-use-but-drai ...[text shortened]... ery low priority to politicians regardless of political party.

    Summary: You have been duped.
    Your post doesn't make sense. "leftists ... only goal with climate change mitigation policy is tax increases." What? That is very weird and most definitely wrong. Of course energy efficiency has been a common political goal for a long time. See: Lightbulbs. Cars. Appliances. etc. Just search the interspheres for "energy efficiency policies" and a myriad of things come up that are decidedly not right-wing priorities.

    Furthermore, your link has nothing to do with what you're talking about. You say "nobody really wants to do anything about it" but there's a ton of evidence that contradicts this. Also, anecdotally, I received a gubment flyer in the mail years ago with a list of energy saving strategies that included unplugging appliances. I also saw it on a highway billboard. Do a little digging. Where do you think the ENERGY Star came from? Leftist gubment. [1]

    They care, and they are doing stuff, and it's working.

    [1] https://thinkprogress.org/trump-plans-to-spike-a-popular-cheap-effective-program-that-also-reduces-emissions-af1e12d33c75/
  3. Joined
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    07 Dec '17 12:582 edits
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    Your post doesn't make sense.
    his posts rarely do but especially when he speaks of his "lefties" and "greenies" load of crap.
    That is why I now rarely waste any more of my time reading any of his unintelligent wildly delusional ranting and raving posts.
  4. Joined
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    08 Dec '17 17:22
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    Your post doesn't make sense. "leftists ... only goal with climate change mitigation policy is tax increases." What? That is very weird and most definitely wrong. Of course energy efficiency has been a common political goal for a long time. See: Lightbulbs. Cars. Appliances. etc. Just search the interspheres for "energy efficiency policies" and a myriad o ...[text shortened]... trump-plans-to-spike-a-popular-cheap-effective-program-that-also-reduces-emissions-af1e12d33c75/
    That is your psychological projection. Your post doesn't make any sense.

    Essentially what you are saying is that every household in America should unplug all of their DVD players, VCRs, CD players and TVs when they are not being used? When my kids went back to my ex-wife for the week I had them unplug the power strips from their rooms, but aside from that very few people will unplug a power strip if they will be using the TV and DVD player later in the day or even the next day. People are too lazy and distracted with other things in their lives to do that.

    That makes no sense. What makes sense is to make the TVs and DVD players more efficient so energy will be saved regardless of how distracted or lazy people are. If people are required to turn on a TV before the remote control can be used that is a very minor inconvenience since people are usually on their feet before they decide to turn on the TV. In a country with high obesity and diabetes rates there would be no real downside generally.

    Doing stuff? They are not doing enough and it is obvious to the informed.
    Just take refrigerators and freezers for example. They are mostly needlessly inefficient. They could be expelling heat in the summer and pulling air from outside into the fridge/freezer in the winter. All refrigerators should be able to be used as an air conditioner if the door is opened to cool the house. I'm not saying it should be used for that, just that it is possible.

    You are clearly wrong. Energy star is great, but that is just consumer awareness, not regulation. DVD makers will not manufacture an efficient DVD player until all are required to do so to be imported. This will make the burden equal for all manufactures and they will comply if they want to sell their product in the USA. Not being able to sell in the USA would be a huge blow to sales.

    All you alarmists ignore the solutions that can be done now so you can have a carbon tax later when you have allowed fossil fuels to be wasted. That a tax agenda, not a solution.
  5. Joined
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    08 Dec '17 19:11
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    That is your psychological projection. Your post doesn't make any sense.

    Essentially what you are saying is that every household in America should unplug all of their DVD players, VCRs, CD players and TVs when they are not being used? When my kids went back to my ex-wife for the week I had them unplug the power strips from their rooms, but aside from ...[text shortened]... on tax later when you have allowed fossil fuels to be wasted. That a tax agenda, not a solution.
    Uhh, the article you posted argued for unplugging appliances while not in use. I was replying to that. The simple flyer actually worked in my house, so I assume it's worked in others'. I put it on the fridge. It's frankly amazing that leftist Energy Star saved hundreds of billions in consumers' energy costs without a single mandate to manufacturers. It's not just through awareness but also tax incentives, tips for building/renovating homes for energy star compliance (which raises home values), advice on repairs and insulation, cost calculators, and long term energy strategies for homes and business. And yet the leftists you decry are now fighting to save the program while conservatives call it a waste of money. That's why your post didn't make sense.

    The reason why I think the current tack is working is because electricity use in the US is going down, while the population and reliance on powered tech is going up. Therefore, we're getting more efficient.

    For what it's worth, they do manufacture energy efficient DVD players. Some of the best sellers are Energy star-certified. Energy Star also endorses smart TVs that are 27% more efficient on average, and getting better. "If each TV, DVD player, and soundbar purchased in the U.S. this year earned the ENERGY STAR certified, we would save more than $220 million" [1]

    New refrigerators aren't perfect, but replacing your old one might save you $100/year in electricity cost (according to the energy star website). The mandate road might work too, but there are soo many products so how practical do you think the regulations would be? Fuel efficiency mandates worked with cars though. Do you have data as to how much energy the US could save by mandating more efficient DVD players? Compare your mandate model to the existing energy efficiency model. Would it be better? How does your DVD player mandate proposal save more than $220M in energy costs? Do you force consumers to buy new ones?

    [1] https://www.energystar.gov/products/electronics/televisions
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    12 Dec '17 20:36
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    Uhh, the article you posted argued for unplugging appliances while not in use. I was replying to that. The simple flyer actually worked in my house, so I assume it's worked in others'. I put it on the fridge. It's frankly amazing that leftist Energy Star saved hundreds of billions in consumers' energy costs without a single mandate to manufacturers. It's ...[text shortened]... ce consumers to buy new ones?

    [1] https://www.energystar.gov/products/electronics/televisions
    I never said I had anything against Energy Star. I'm for it.

    It will take more than just helping people find more efficient electrical products. That is a great start, but manufacturers are trying to sell less expensive products more than efficient products. I doubt the most efficient DVD player sells as well as it should.

    It seems to me that I am more serious about efficiency than the leftists that falsely claim they are. They are more concerned with passing a tax later. I am more concerned with doing something now to avoid a tax in the future. You need to decide which one you support.

    You can't force people to replace something that is not dangerous. It isn't practical. They all will be replaced at some point though, so mandating more efficient products to be manufactured ASAP is the answer as long as it will pay for itself in energy savings. Many products meet that criteria.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    13 Dec '17 00:07
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    I never said I had anything against Energy Star. I'm for it.

    It will take more than just helping people find more efficient electrical products. That is a great start, but manufacturers are trying to sell less expensive products more than efficient products. I doubt the most efficient DVD player sells as well as it should.

    It seems to me that I a ...[text shortened]... he answer as long as it will pay for itself in energy savings. Many products meet that criteria.
    That only works for regular household items but a toaster for instance, will be unlikely to ever be usable if it doesn't have a thousand watt filament in it. Maybe someday there will be a highly efficient IR emmiter that can do that job but not right now, same with ovens.

    DVD players already use minimum electricity and some portables run for hours on a couple of AA cells so to go from a box using 10 watts to a box using 5 watts won't make a huge dent in our energy usage considering there is maybe one or two in a home Vs dozen's of lights running 25 watts or more, even the efficient LED ones. That change from incadescent to spiral to LED lights has made a big dent in our energy usage.

    But that still pales in comparison to the energy we use in transport.

    An electric car has a battery of at least 25 kwhr rating so you have to shove in 25000 watts for an hour to get to get you a few hundred mies and at the end of that trip, rinse and repeat at least once a week, for me, once every two days since I have a job 80 miles from home, not much I can do to change that.

    I don't think there is a whole lot of room for improvement of electric cars, the electric motors are 85% and more efficient already so at best only ten or so percent available for improvment but such improvement is valuable for sure since we use so much energy for transport. a 5% increase in efficiency there would make a big difference in total energy consumption.

    Even at the outside, we get say, fusion to work somehow, maybe even miniaturized like in Back to the future, and we go off fossil fuels entirely, we will still be heating up the planet to the tune of 50 or more terawatts and even that can effect weather. But going off the CO2 tit will help a LOT but we have to worry about Methane also.
  8. Joined
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    15 Dec '17 19:55
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    That only works for regular household items but a toaster for instance, will be unlikely to ever be usable if it doesn't have a thousand watt filament in it. Maybe someday there will be a highly efficient IR emmiter that can do that job but not right now, same with ovens.

    DVD players already use minimum electricity and some portables run for hours on a ...[text shortened]... fect weather. But going off the CO2 tit will help a LOT but we have to worry about Methane also.
    Toasters are as efficient as possible at producing heat. Nothing can be done there except make the filaments closer to the bread. Kind of irrelevant.

    "DVD players already use minimum electricity"

    No they don't, at least not generally. So you can find one exception. I don't see the relevance in that either. Unless it sells well the problem is unsolved. There is still unnecessary inefficiency.

    I wasn't talking about autos. You are digressing. I'm talking about things that can be done now and is worth the cost.
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    26 Dec '17 20:21
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    It seems to me that I am more serious about efficiency than the leftists that falsely claim they are.
    You're more serious because you want to regulate the manufacturing of an outdated technology? That doesn't exactly sound serious to me. Think bigger.

    I know some "leftists" who keep their homes between 7-10 Celsius in the winter to save energy (apparently you get used to it). I know some leftists who don't use electricity in their homes - at all. I know some leftists who build homes called earthships where the purpose is to maximize energy efficiency. I don't know any right-wingers who would even consider living in one of these homes.

    You seem to want to turn energy efficiency into a political argument, but conservatives will certainly lose that one. Maybe you're serious but leftists are too.
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    27 Dec '17 22:44
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    You're more serious because you want to regulate the manufacturing of an outdated technology? That doesn't exactly sound serious to me. Think bigger.

    I know some "leftists" who keep their homes between 7-10 Celsius in the winter to save energy (apparently you get used to it). I know some leftists who don't use electricity in their homes - at all. I kno ...[text shortened]... ment, but conservatives will certainly lose that one. Maybe you're serious but leftists are too.
    What outdated technology? What are you talking about?
  11. Joined
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    31 Dec '17 20:14
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    What outdated technology? What are you talking about?
    DVD players.
  12. Joined
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    02 Jan '18 16:36
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    DVD players.
    DVD players are not outdated technology.
    Nobody can read your mind. What are you talking about?
  13. Joined
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    02 Jan '18 18:50
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    DVD players are not outdated technology.
    Nobody can read your mind. What are you talking about?
    I bought one DVD player in my life... in 2002. I gave it to Goodwill in 2010, and I will never buy another one.

    I understand that folks still use DVD players frequently, but some hipsters still use 8-track tapes too. Meanwhile hundreds of movies can be watched online with a Netflix subscription. If you like free shipping, a hundred more are on Amazon. Almost all other movies can be rented on the internet for a few bucks. For the same price as a DVD, the digital copy can be watched anytime, anywhere, forever. Because of this, DVD player sales have declined every year since 2004, replaced by digital streaming services which overtook DVDs for good a few years ago. The point is: Investing in new technology to force DVD player manufacturing more energy efficient is a waste of resources on an outdated technology in a declining market.

    Will you also regulate the efficiency of the horse-and-buggy as a form of transportation? Wave of the future for sure.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/entertainment/tech-generations/
  14. Joined
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    08 Jan '18 17:50
    Originally posted by @wildgrass
    I bought one DVD player in my life... in 2002. I gave it to Goodwill in 2010, and I will never buy another one.

    I understand that folks still use DVD players frequently, but some hipsters still use 8-track tapes too. Meanwhile hundreds of movies can be watched online with a Netflix subscription. If you like free shipping, a hundred more are on Amazon. ...[text shortened]... future for sure.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/entertainment/tech-generations/
    That is a poor argument. I have 4 DVD players in my home. I only use a couple, but they are still sold and people buy them all the time. My brother gave me a Blue Ray disc player recently and I see them in the ABC Warehouse paper all the time. I don't doubt sales are dropping, but this is more than DVD players. I merely used DVD players as an example, not because it is the best example. I suppose TVs would be a better example, but I did mention CD players, Amp/receivers, VCRs and maybe something else before, but I just wanted to keep it simple instead of making a long list of electronic devices used in the home.

    I still have a cassette player and turntable. I'm sure many people don't own either, but if you add all those things together from older and younger generations it amounts to a lot of wasted electricity. You can't deny that.

    Electricity is being wasted and you are not trying to do anything about it. You would rather have a tax later than do something about it now to avoid it. Then when a carbon tax is passed it will be used to pay the interest on the national debt, not renewables as you would like. If government didn't plan on using the money for unrelated expenses Al Gore would have suggested putting the money in a lock box earmarked for renewables. Since nobody in politics is suggesting anything like that you can bet it will never be used for it.

    In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way. Franklin D. Roosevelt
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    08 Jan '18 21:25
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    You would rather have a tax later than do something about it now to avoid it.
    I mentioned no tax. You're talking about a tax. Your plan taxes manufacturers' for expensive R&D and expensive materials to fulfill the mandate, or taxes consumers paying the higher price. What will you get, say in 10 years, compared to our current strategy? I brought up Energy Star since it does the same thing you're talking about through conscious consumerism that adapts to evolving technology, without the tax you propose. Instead, you're mandating to me what appliances I can own and jacking up the price?

    So stop saying leftists only care about taxes. energy star is a cheap, effective, leftist idea.

    How about smart hotels? (leftist idea) Just simple rewiring that automatically turns off electricity unless someone is in a room. Along with laundering dirty towels only etc. can reduce energy use by 45%, saving boatloads of money for the hotel that can be passed on to the consumer.

    I remember when a (leftist) president suggested that drivers inflate their tires (read: THIS IS NOT A TAX) and there was a massive backlash from conservatives. Air is free, and properly inflated tires would save a billion gallons of fuel in the US alone. Simple awareness can reduce green house gases, with no mandates or taxes.

    These are no brainers that would reduce energy significantly more than your DVD player taxation mandate plans. How will your efficiency mandate/tax work if there are aggressive negative reactions from conservatives for the suggestion to add air to your tires?
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