supernatural

Originally posted by Eladar
Wasting time on the blind and arrogant but who knows...

Lets assume that God created the world. Is it possible that he did so with a world that has age? Could God have created a world with the fossil record in place to mislead the arrogant?

Was Adam, the first man, created with speem and egg? He was created with age. Why do you assume the earth and Universe would not?

Lets assume that God created the world. Is it possible that he did so with a world that has age?

Why cannot there have been a god that made the world many millions of years ago before those fossils and then allowed evolution to produce them over the required millions of years?
Where is the logical contradiction in that?
If no logical contradiction, why isn't it logically possible?
Of course, I believe that unlikely albeit not impossible, but please explain to us why you think it isn't even possible...

Could God have created a world with the fossil record in place to mislead the arrogant?

Any non-self-contradiction is possible, but why would a being of infinite wisdom do that? -it wouldn't mislead the arrogant in particular but rather mislead the rational; so he is not all wise after all! So that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Was Adam, the first man, created with speem and egg?

From the evidence of incremental evolution; there was no first man. Was the very first dog of the first domestic bread of dog created with sperm and egg? And why would that first domestic dog be called Adam in particular? Why not barky?

He was created with age. Why do you assume the earth and Universe would not?

I don't assume the universe isn't old nor do I assume there was a 'first man' who's name is Adam ; don't know where you got any of that from.

Originally posted by Eladar
Wasting time on the blind and arrogant but who knows...

So you believe Adam was created with memories of his childhood? Like the time his mother slapped him for peeking up his sisters skirt?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you believe Adam was created with memories of his childhood? Like the time his mother slapped him for peeking up his sisters skirt?

No, but he was created as a man not a baby or sperm and egg. Adam had not mother.

Originally posted by humy

Lets assume that God created the world. Is it possible that he did so with a world that has age?

Why cannot there have been a god that made the world many millions of years ago before those fossils and then allowed evolution to produce them over the required millions of years?
Where is the logical contradiction in that?
If no logical ...[text shortened]... I assume there was a 'first man' who's name is Adam ; don't know where you got any of that from.

Could God have created the world through evolution? Sure.

I do not believe that it must.

My point is that if you are going to believe evolution and not simply state it as a theory that makes the most sense to you, then you are taking a leap of faith.

Originally posted by Eladar
Could God have created the world through evolution? Sure.

I do not believe that it must.

My point is that if you are going to believe evolution and not simply state it as a theory that makes the most sense to you, then you are taking a leap of faith.

Could God have created the world through evolution?

that obviously isn't at all what I said. Can't you read?

I do not believe that it must.

you don't believe what must and do/be what?

My point is that if you are going to believe evolution and not simply state it as a theory ...

a proven theory. I believe any theory that is proven by the evidence.

then you are taking a leap of faith.

no, I am believing a proven theory. Believing a proven theory isn't a leap of faith. We have evidence for evolution. Believing there is a god is a leap of faith. We have no evidence that there is a god. If and when there is evidence that there is a god then I will believe that there is a god; but then it wouldn't be faith but rather based purely on the evidence, just like with my current belief that evolution happens and just like with my current belief that the earth is round and not flat. Either way, I have no faith nor leap of faith and never will. Look up the definition of faith and come back to us.

Originally posted by humy

Could God have created the world through evolution?

that obviously isn't at all what I said. Can't you read?

I do not believe that it must.

you don't believe what must and do/be what?

My point is that if you are going to believe evolution and not simply state it as a theory ...

a proven th ...[text shortened]... no faith nor leap of faith and never will. Look up the definition of faith and come back to us.

You believe in a proven theory? True believers are impossible to discuss with. They just can't see the reality of their situation.

Originally posted by humy...
And how on earth are you defining the word 'supernatural' in such a way that it implies that if a mind comes to exist in the biosphere then that indicates the existence of something 'supernatural'? ...

I thought you meant the concept of "a mind comes to exist in the biosphere" was stupid. I made a bad assumption.

So did you. I didn't claim that such a mind would be supernatural; I asked if you thought that such a mind would be supernatural.

Consider if such a mind did exist. Just as your mind can affect your body, this earth-mind would affect the earth. However, our sciences would explain those effects without any reference to the earth-mind at all. Even though the earth-mind was part of the cause of those effects!

Although I believe such a mind and all its effects would be natural (of course mother earth is natural) I can see how since the effects of this mind are over-and-beyond what science is even able to detect, people might consider it to be supernatural.

I'm reminded of the Clarke quote: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Nature beyond our current science would seem to be supernatural.

Isn't this fun?

Originally posted by apathist
I thought you meant the concept of "a mind comes to exist in the biosphere" was stupid. I made a bad assumption.

So did you. I didn't claim that such a mind would be supernatural; I asked if you thought that such a mind would be supernatural.

Consider if such a mind did exist. Just as your mind can affect your body, this earth-mind would affec ...[text shortened]... m magic.[/i] Nature beyond our current science would seem to be supernatural.

Isn't this fun?

I asked if you thought that such a mind would be supernatural.

I wouldn't think any mind is supernatural because it come to exist in a biosphere. My mind is an example of a mind that has come to exists in a biosphere; why would I think my mind or any other mind would be supernatural because it come to exist in a biosphere? What has mind being born in a biosphere in particular got to do with whether it may be supernatural? It is irrelevant. You aren't making any sense.

Consider if such a mind did exist. Just as your mind can affect your body, this earth-mind would affect the earth.

What do you mean by "earth-mind"? What are you referring to by "earth-mind"? define "earth-mind"

Nature beyond our current science would seem to be supernatural.

what do you mean by nature "beyond" our current science? In what sense "beyond"? Any observable part of nature can be studied by science and thus be part of scientific study because it is observable thus wouldn't be "beyond" science in that sense. I contrast, any unobservable part of nature cannot be studied by science because it is unobservable but that just means we can know absolutely nothing about it and it wouldn't "seem to be supernatural", as you just said above, if we cannot observe it. An unobservable thing, because it is unobservable, wouldn't "seem" to be anything.

humyWhat has mind being born in a biosphere in particular got to do with whether it may be supernatural? It is irrelevant. You aren't making any sense.

Irrelevant to what? I asked a question. You aren't making any sense.

What do you mean by "earth-mind"? What are you referring to by "earth-mind"? define "earth-mind"
I explained myself. Your question indicates a fatal lack of attention on your part.

what do you mean by nature "beyond" our current science?
I can see you talking with Clarke. You would completely miss his point, too.

My search for sensible feedback continues. Thanks for playing.

Originally posted by Eladar
No, but he was created as a man not a baby or sperm and egg. Adam had not mother.

Then he was not created with history? Therefore you cannot reasonably use him as an analogy for a universe created with a history.
If I look up at the sky at night and see a star explode that is 1 million light years away, then either:
The universe is at least one million years old.
The universe was created with a fake history in which a star exploded. This is no different from Adam being created with fake memories of his mother.

Originally posted by apathist
I thought you meant the concept of "a mind comes to exist in the biosphere" was stupid. I made a bad assumption.

So did you. I didn't claim that such a mind would be supernatural; I asked if you thought that such a mind would be supernatural.

Consider if such a mind did exist. Just as your mind can affect your body, this earth-mind would affec ...[text shortened]... m magic.[/i] Nature beyond our current science would seem to be supernatural.

Isn't this fun?

I'm trying to get what you have in mind. Are you thinking of some sort of collective consciousness? A more subtle version of the World-Mind in Avatar? Something which could be explained by supervenience physicalism or do you have something specifically supernatural in mind?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Then he was not created with history? Therefore you cannot reasonably use him as an analogy for a universe created with a history.
If I look up at the sky at night and see a star explode that is 1 million light years away, then either:
The universe is at least one million years old.
The universe was created with a fake history in which a star exploded. This is no different from Adam being created with fake memories of his mother.

If Adam were to travel through time and appear today moments after he was created, how old would he appear to us? How long would he appear to be alive with an adult's body?

Surely not only seconds old.

Originally posted by Eladar
If Adam were to travel through time and appear today moments after he was created, how old would he appear to us? How long would he appear to be alive with an adult's body?

Surely not only seconds old.

Do you have a point, or are you simply trying to dodge?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you have a point, or are you simply trying to dodge?

My point is that no one could judge his age. Adam was created with age so why assume the universe was not?

But you are unwilling to acknowledge my point for to do so would bring your beliefs crashing around your ears.

Originally posted by Eladar
My point is that no one could judge his age.

If we asked him about his memories of his mother and his baby sister, and he gave detailed accounts of growing up, would we then be able to judge his age?

Adam was created with age so why assume the universe was not?
What do you even mean by 'created with age'. When he was created he was age zero. What you mean is he was created with evidence that he was older than he really was.
So, I ask you again what your opinion is on last Tuesdayism. Do you believe the universe was created last Tuesday?

But you are unwilling to acknowledge my point for to do so would bring your beliefs crashing around your ears.
I acknowledged your point very clearly, then pointed out that you, yourself do not buy your own point. Hence your stubborn repetition without being willing to actually discuss it.