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  1. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    18 Jul '12 09:33
    http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120718.html

    A cavern below a crater on Mars!
  2. Standard member Thequ1ck
    Fast above
    18 Jul '12 13:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120718.html

    A cavern below a crater on Mars!
    Interesting. Makes one wonder how the mantle of Mars might behave as an ideal heat capacitor for stabilizing temperature ranges to enable subterranean 'life'.
  3. 18 Jul '12 17:40 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Interesting. Makes one wonder how the mantle of Mars might behave as an ideal heat capacitor for stabilizing temperature ranges to enable subterranean 'life'.
    tell me what do you think a "heat capacitor" is or an "ideal heat capacitor" is?
    try and find a link that defines these terms.

    look at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

    how does this relate to heat?

    ( I may regret posting this. We may get a all too familiar response with the word “represent” in it )
  4. Standard member Thequ1ck
    Fast above
    18 Jul '12 18:52 / 11 edits
    Originally posted by humy
    tell me what do you think a "heat capacitor" is or an "ideal heat capacitor" is?
    try and find a link that defines these terms.

    look at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

    how does this relate to heat?

    ( I may regret posting this. We may get a all too familiar response with the word “represent” in it )
    OK. I should have said. 'Does the heat capacity of Mar's mantle enable diffusion of heat in such a way as to remain within the tangible limits for which are know to support 'light-less' organic life?'.

    But I was thinking. 'What are the known electrolytic conditions upon which life 'could' not rely upon Photosynthesis?. Could these conditions not be said to be better suited toward Silicon life?'.

    edit. Sorry for the number of edits. Not OCD, just too dumb to use a Word Processor first.
  5. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    18 Jul '12 21:36 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    OK. I should have said. 'Does the heat capacity of Mar's mantle enable diffusion of heat in such a way as to remain within the tangible limits for which are know to support 'light-less' organic life?'.

    But I was thinking. 'What are the known electrolytic conditions upon which life 'could' not rely upon Photosynthesis?. Could these conditions not be said t. Sorry for the number of edits. Not OCD, just too dumb to use a Word Processor first.
    Heat and capacitor don't go together is what hu was getting at. Capacitance is the potential storage of electrical energy depending on the potential difference between the electrodes, the voltage difference between the plates and the dialectric constant between the electrodes. Here is a chart speaking to dialectric constants:

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/diel.html

    The higher the dialectric constant k, the more energy stored per volt of difference between the two electrodes.
    Notice, vacuum has a k of 1, and air very close to 1. So one unit of energy for a given amount of voltage difference between the electrodes.

    But look at strontium Titanate, k= 318! If that is between the electrodes which are separated by the same distance as compared to air or vacuum, it stores 318 times the energy, if a capacitor has a value of 1 microfarad with the electrodes X distant apart, the value of capacitance with the same thickness of Strontium Titanate would now be 318 microfarads, which is why it can store more energy, it can put out given current for 318 times longer than using vacuum or air as the dialectric (the gap between electrodes) Of course it takes 318 times longer to get to that energy level, like a battery with that much more power density.
    If you put in 1 unit of energy per second and it takes 318 seconds to charge fully, you get the same energy stored if you use 0.1 unit of energy per second and charge for 3180 seconds. But that capacitor can discharge all that energy in say, one microsecond which makes it great for such devices as strobe lights and pulsed lasers.


    You seem to be talking about thermal energy storage, like when you have a couple hundred gallons of water in columns inside a house and it is heated by the sun but when the sun goes down, it starts releasing its stored heat energy, like a thermal battery, thus helping to maintain a constant temperature in the room or house.
  6. 19 Jul '12 05:25
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Heat and capacitor don't go together is what hu was getting at.......

    You seem to be talking about thermal energy storage, like when you have a couple hundred gallons of water in columns inside a house and it is heated by the sun but when the sun goes down, it starts releasing its stored heat energy, like a thermal battery, thus helping to maintain a constant temperature in the room or house.
    It is interesting that 'Heat capacity' and 'thermal capacity' are perfectly valid terms:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity
    but the words 'capacitance' and 'capacitor' do not occur on that page.

    However 'thermal capacitance' is found here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_mass

    I didn't find 'thermal capacitor' on Wikipedia, but it is on a number of other sites.
  7. Standard member Thequ1ck
    Fast above
    19 Jul '12 13:27 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Heat and capacitor don't go together is what hu was getting at. Capacitance is the potential storage of electrical energy depending on the potential difference between the electrodes, the voltage difference between the plates and the dialectric constant between the electrodes. Here is a chart speaking to dialectric constants:

    http://hyperphysics.phy-ast ...[text shortened]... , like a thermal battery, thus helping to maintain a constant temperature in the room or house.
    Thnx for the research, I will attempt to understand it as Electronics is a particular weakness of mine.

    I was actually thinking in another direction though.

    Suppose you have a sealed box with two compounds which react within
    a certain temperature range and return to their constituants below this
    temperature level.

    The group compound has either a greater or lesser charge
    than the sum of it's constituant compounds.

    If you then raised the heat to this reactionary level
    at one end of the box but not the other. Would this
    create a potential?

    Do you see where I'm heading with this? If there are underground water reserves channels on mars, the extreme temperature variance between night and day, would create temperature differentials.

    The distance of the water supply beneath the surface would allow for a huge variety of different heat potentials. Thus creating a greater range for these reactions to occur.
  8. 19 Jul '12 15:10
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Thnx for the research, I will attempt to understand it as Electronics is a particular weakness of mine.

    I was actually thinking in another direction though.

    Suppose you have a sealed box with two compounds which react within
    a certain temperature range and return to their constituants below this
    temperature level.

    The group compound has either ...[text shortened]... iety of different heat potentials. Thus creating a greater range for these reactions to occur.
    The group compound has either a greater or lesser charge
    than the sum of it's constituant compounds.

    what does that mean?
    ( note that I have done university chemistry and physics courses )
  9. Standard member Thequ1ck
    Fast above
    19 Jul '12 15:57 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by humy
    The group compound has either a greater or lesser charge
    than the sum of it's constituant compounds.

    what does that mean?
    ( note that I have done university chemistry and physics courses )
    A Chemical reaction by default encompasses the charges of it's constituent compounds or elements.

    However, if there were a pool of free radicals or loosely associated electrons within this pool then it may be possible.

    That's my view but I'm not a Chemist.
  10. 19 Jul '12 18:46
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    I was actually thinking in another direction though.
    Initially I thought that you were simply saying that underground temperatures would be more stable that surface temperatures and that they might be within the range required by life. Now however I am just confused about what you are trying to say.

    In general however, subsurface temperatures are fairly stable and below a few meters would be more seasonal than daily.
  11. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    20 Jul '12 01:58
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Initially I thought that you were simply saying that underground temperatures would be more stable that surface temperatures and that they might be within the range required by life. Now however I am just confused about what you are trying to say.

    In general however, subsurface temperatures are fairly stable and below a few meters would be more seasonal than daily.
    I would imagine at some depth if there was ice there would be liquid water also, maybe even underground rivers.
  12. Standard member Thequ1ck
    Fast above
    20 Jul '12 08:20 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Initially I thought that you were simply saying that underground temperatures would be more stable that surface temperatures and that they might be within the range required by life. Now however I am just confused about what you are trying to say.

    In general however, subsurface temperatures are fairly stable and below a few meters would be more seasonal than daily.
    Initially it was what I was saying but it occurred to me how it would take more than a stable heat range to sustain life. It would require an alternative to photosynthesis. An electric current might just do it.
  13. 20 Jul '12 08:44 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Initially it was what I was saying but it occurred to me how it would take more than a stable heat range to sustain life. It would require an alternative to photosynthesis. An electric current might just do it.
    An electric current might just do it.

    but not only is there no known life that can naturally derive its energy from an electric current from its environmental but, more fundamentally, there would be no electric current in the Martian crust. What would generate such a current there?
  14. 20 Jul '12 09:35
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Initially it was what I was saying but it occurred to me how it would take more than a stable heat range to sustain life. It would require an alternative to photosynthesis. An electric current might just do it.
    There are many life forms on earth that survive without photosynthesis (most notably on mid ocean ridges) and in fact it is believed that the earliest life forms did not have photosynthesis.
  15. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    20 Jul '12 09:50
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Initially it was what I was saying but it occurred to me how it would take more than a stable heat range to sustain life. It would require an alternative to photosynthesis. An electric current might just do it.
    You have an imagination for sure. It seems to me however you need to go to school and complete your education in science so you don't keep going off the deep end.

    Like Hu says, what would generate current on Mars? There is only spotty magnetic fields there, no global field like on Earth which could generate some kind of electrical flow but the main thing for life is not electrons but complex molecules, at least for life as we know it.

    My main question about life on other planets like Mars or the outer moons like Europa, assuming some day we find life there, is this:

    Is life there based on DNA, if not what?

    I think that is the most fundamental question about alien life you can ask.

    If it is DNA, that could mean life in our neck of the galaxy possibly came from precursor chemicals in a giant interstellar cloud which seeded this part of the galaxy and DNA was the eventual result and therefore we would have a chance of finding life compatible with ours in other places in the solar system and maybe even in stars that were born from the same supernova that gave us our solar system. Astronomers have identified about 1500 stars that were born from the same nebula that formed Sol and the whole solar system.

    If it is life based on something besides DNA it could mean life on Earth is unique and there may be life everywhere based on many other kinds of molecular information storage systems, for instance our DNA is a double helix kind of like a twisted ladder but perhaps that isn't the only way for life to happen, for instance, that DNA could be more like a long rectangular box, like two DNA sets very close together with four links making a twisted long box instead or some such, as just a speculative example, or perhaps a triangular arrangement with three links like a series of triangular units. All pure speculation but our form of DNA I would bet is not the only way to make life.