Vegetarians Less Healthy, Lower Quality Of Life

Originally posted by Eladar
Study: Vegetarians Less Healthy, Lower Quality Of Life Than Meat-Eaters

[b]Vegetarians may have a lower BMI and drink alcohol sparingly, but vegetarian diets are tied to generally poorer health, poorer quality of life and a higher need for health care than their meat-eating counterparts.

Looks like the BMI folks don't have it figured out.

http:// ...[text shortened]... a.cbslocal.com/2014/04/01/study-vegetarians-less-healthy-lower-quality-of-life-than-meat-eaters/[/b]

The study I think establishes a correlation, but causation is anything but certain. The article notes the following, among other things:

1) Vegetarians tend to have poorer health care practices.
2) Vegetarians tend to avoid preventative care.
2) Vegetarians don't get vaccinations as frequently.
3) Vegetarians tend to suffer more from anxiety and depression.

Clearly eating no meat does not preclude observing good health maintenance practices and getting vaccinations, so something else is going on. In Austrian society (the study was conducted in Austria) the percentage of people who are vegetarians is probably around 1% or less. So you're looking at a very small, very specific subset of the general population, and it can be expected that other factors are in play that would cause this particular segment of Austrian society, as a cohort, to have poorer health than the "typical" Austrian. The article even says:

However, the researchers do caution that continuing studies will be needed to substantiate some of the rather broad dietary distinctions, associations presented in this current research.

Not explicitly mentioned in the article is a very big factor: vegetarians, especially vegans, do not necessarily know enough about nutrition science to ensure that they're eating a balanced diet that gives them the full spectrum of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. It is possible to have a balanced diet that does not include any animal products, but it takes education and dedication.

In my experience many hard-core vegans are anti-science. They think Western medicine is evil, and go in for all sorts of dodgy pseudoscientific nonsense like healing crystals, feng shui, the Age of Aquarius, and, worst of all, running to health-nut stores to obtain tremendous doses of herbal remedies like St. John's wort, saw palmetto, gingko, echinacea, ginseng, and so on. Many of these herbs are useless or downright dangerous. With vegetarians, you have to study the whole package. Basically, a significant number of vegetarians are way overdoing it and poisoning themselves, and these are the ones, I suspect, who are pulling the whole cohort down in this study.

I'd be curious to see a study of Indian vegetarians. My guess is that in cultures with a strong vegetarian tradition you won't see the problems you see in Austrian vegetarians.

Originally posted by Soothfast
The study I think establishes a correlation, but causation is anything but certain. The article notes the following, among other things:

1) Vegetarians tend to have poorer health care practices.
2) Vegetarians tend to avoid preventative care.
2) Vegetarians don't get vaccinations as frequently.
3) Vegetarians tend to suffer more from anxiety and ...[text shortened]... s with a strong vegetarian tradition you won't see the problems you see in Austrian vegetarians.

Some of the measures they used in the survey were self-reported health scores. These are fine if the initial groups are chosen randomly - individual tendencies to over- or under-report tend to average out over groups, There's a real risk of selection bias here as the groups were chosen on the basis of their diet and it could just be that vegetarians moan more about their health. The writers also note cultural factors rather than anything intrinsic about the diet being potential drivers for this (vegans less likely to see doctors and get vaccinations) and liable to vary between countries as the culture among vegetarians in the U.K. for example is different. I think this study is of more value in working out how to target healthcare in Austria, which was the study authors intention, rather than in informing one of what diet to choose. It would be interesting to repeat the study in the U.K. and see if they get different results.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Some of the measures they used in the survey were self-reported health scores. These are fine if the initial groups are chosen randomly - individual tendencies to over- or under-report tend to average out over groups, There's a real risk of selection bias here as the groups were chosen on the basis of their diet and it could just be that vegetarians mo ...[text shortened]... It would be interesting to repeat the study in the U.K. and see if they get different results.

The UK has a significant Indian population (and many Indians are vegetarian, as I mentioned), and just generally has a more diverse demographic at least in the cities. So I would expect the outcome to be significantly different.

Originally posted by Soothfast
The study I think establishes a correlation, but causation is anything but certain. The article notes the following, among other things:

1) Vegetarians tend to have poorer health care practices.
2) Vegetarians tend to avoid preventative care.
2) Vegetarians don't get vaccinations as frequently.
3) Vegetarians tend to suffer more from anxiety and ...[text shortened]... s with a strong vegetarian tradition you won't see the problems you see in Austrian vegetarians.

You are an expert on nutritional value of diets that include meat and diets that do not?

From what I've seen, there are certain nutrients that you find in meats that you do not find in vegetables. This is because the nutrients (or vitamins not sure but for this discussion the distinction is irrelevant) are a result of bacteria which lives in the animal we consume.

It seems to me that the healthiest diets are those that are balanced and dense in nutritional value, anti inflammatory and low in sugar. Of course genetics plays a major roll. I found this story interesting:

http://nypost.com/2014/04/05/america-rejoice-being-fat-may-actually-make-you-healthier/

Genetics also plays a part on how your body looks. People with the genetics to be the size of an professional football player are going to be much larger people than those who have the genetics to be a jockey. Perhaps certain people have genetics more suited for a vegetarian diet while other people have genetics that are more suited for a diet that includes meat.

Originally posted by Eladar
You are an expert on nutritional value of diets that include meat and diets that do not?

From what I've seen, there are certain nutrients that you find in meats that you do not find in vegetables. This is because the nutrients (or vitamins not sure but for this discussion the distinction is irrelevant) are a result of bacteria which lives in the animal we ...[text shortened]... tarian diet while other people have genetics that are more suited for a diet that includes meat.

From what I've seen, there are certain nutrients that you find in meats that you do not find in vegetables.

But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health. As for vitamin D, you can get that from exposure to sunlight or from food artificially fortified with it such as certain breakfast cereals or from D supplements -all without eating a single tiny bit of meat. There is absolutely NO scientific or rational reason to suppose not eating meat equates with poorer health.

This is because the nutrients (or vitamins not sure but for this discussion the distinction is irrelevant) are a result of bacteria which lives in the animal we consume.

RUBBISH! Where the hell did you get that from? WHICH bacteria? What vitamins or nutrients are produced in bacteria in animals that don't exist in vegetables? The ONLY important vitamin or nutrient found in meat but not in vegetables is vitamin D and you don't need meat to get have enough vitamin D and vitamin D is NOT produced by bacteria in animals! If you don't believe me, just go through the finite list of essential vitamins and minerals the human body needs (you can do so here: http://greatist.com/health/ultimate-guide-vitamins-and-minerals ) and see if they exist in vegetables just by googling it yourself -if you just bother to do that, you see they a ALL there except vitamin D which I have already covered.
I have studies nutrition at collage but, even without that, this is just common layperson knowledge! This shows the extent of you ignorance of this.

Originally posted by humy

From what I've seen, there are certain nutrients that you find in meats that you do not find in vegetables.

But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health. As for vitamin D, you can get that from exposure to sunlight or from food artificially fortified with it such as certain breakfast cereals or from D supplements ...[text shortened]... t that, this is just common layperson knowledge! This shows the extent of you ignorance of this.

Meat offers nothing other than Vitamin D that is essential for good health? Wow, you have much to learn.

Originally posted by Eladar
Meat offers nothing other than Vitamin D that is essential for good health? Wow, you have much to learn.

straw man; taking my comment of "But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health." out of context of your previous comment. Put that comment in its context and it is plainly obvious that it was short for "But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health that VEGETABLES cannot provide".
But, you already new that, so it isn't me that has something to learn but you for I have debunked your claims here.
So, what is your next straw man? or are you going to choose to learn something new for just once in your life?

Originally posted by humy
straw man; taking my comment of "But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health." out of context of your previous comment. Put that comment in its context and it is plainly obvious that it was short for "But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health that VEGETABLES cannot provide".
But, you already new that, s ...[text shortened]... ur next straw man? or are you going to choose to learn something new for just once in your life?

Eladar has an agenda. Clearly it's important to him to make a case, however shoddy, that vegetarian diets are somehow inherently inferior to diets that include meat. I have to imagine it is because he views vegetarianism as a "liberal" policy. For Eladar, all the world breaks down into two monolithic categories: "Liberal" and "Conservative". In order to champion the latter, he goes about sifting through cyberspace for any and every study that seems to put the former at a disadvantage. This goes for climate change as well. And evolution. And atheism. And so on. You could pay a kid in India ten dollars to write a little Java program that exactly simulates Eladar on this forum as well as the debate forum, because there is never any deviation from the primary directive: dig up a weird study (something involving vegetarians in Austria for instance), supply the link along with a few slogans, spout tautologies and contradictions by way of defense, and repeat.*

*EDIT: Okay, another $5 for a subroutine that injects strawmen generated from the posts of respondents by scrambling one or more of their statements.

Originally posted by Soothfast
Eladar has an agenda. Clearly it's important to him to make a case, however shoddy, that vegetarian diets are somehow inherently inferior to diets that include meat. I have to imagine it is because he views vegetarianism as a "liberal" policy. For Eladar, all the world breaks down into two monolithic categories: "Liberal" and "Conservative". In order ...[text shortened]... strawmen generated from the posts of respondents by scrambling one or more of their statements.

LOL too funny had me in stitches , he's nothing if not predictable! Here's a JQuery script you can have for free!

$(document).ready(function(){
$(eladar).click(function(){
$(this).getslogan();
});
});

$("getslogan).click(function(){
$("eladar).inject_strawman({
});
});

$("strawman).click(function(){
$("eladar).spout_tautology({

});
});


😀

Originally posted by Soothfast
Eladar has an agenda. Clearly it's important to him to make a case, however shoddy, that vegetarian diets are somehow inherently inferior to diets that include meat. I have to imagine it is because he views vegetarianism as a "liberal" policy. For Eladar, all the world breaks down into two monolithic categories: "Liberal" and "Conservative". In order ...[text shortened]... strawmen generated from the posts of respondents by scrambling one or more of their statements.

Wow, the leftist glasses are so thick around here. It is impossible to have an actual discussion on facts, only on what people want to believe.

Present a study on science that contradicts dogma and I get a predictable response.

Originally posted by humy
straw man; taking my comment of "But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health." out of context of your previous comment. Put that comment in its context and it is plainly obvious that it was short for "But, with the exception on vitamin D, nothing essential for good health that VEGETABLES cannot provide".
But, you already new that, s ...[text shortened]... ur next straw man? or are you going to choose to learn something new for just once in your life?

http://authoritynutrition.com/5-brain-nutrients-in-meat-fish-eggs/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110202082307.htm

Duo Li notes in the review that meat eaters are known for having a significantly higher combination of cardiovascular risk factors than vegetarians. Lower-risk vegans, however, may not be immune. Their diets tend to be lacking several key nutrients -- including iron, zinc, vitamin B12, and omega-3 fatty acids. While a balanced vegetarian diet can provide enough protein, this isn't always the case when it comes to fat and fatty acids. As a result, vegans tend to have elevated blood levels of homocysteine and decreased levels of HDL, the "good" form of cholesterol. Both are risk factors for heart disease.

Notice I am not saying that one should only eat meat or that one should consume huge amounts of meat. I am saying that if you are an extremist and take meat out of your diet completely, you are putting yourself at risk.

Originally posted by Eladar
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110202082307.htm

[b]Duo Li notes in the review that meat eaters are known for having a significantly higher combination of cardiovascular risk factors than vegetarians. Lower-risk vegans, however, may not be immune. Their diets tend to be lacking several key nutrients -- including iron, zinc, vitamin B12, and om ...[text shortened]... ou are an extremist and take meat out of your diet completely, you are putting yourself at risk.

Strange I have been a strict vegetarian for years and feel excellent for it. I cannot eat meat because it make me feel sick.

Originally posted by Eladar
http://authoritynutrition.com/5-brain-nutrients-in-meat-fish-eggs/

That link is full of lies and misinformation which is clearly contradicted by other links which are SCIENTIFICALLY based. 3 on that list is not even essential to have in the food for good health! not even in trace amount! That is because the body itself produces them! Creatine, Carnosine and vitamin D:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine
“...Creatine is naturally produced in the human body ...”

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/Carnosine.htm
“...Carnosine is a substance produced naturally by the body ...”

Note that, if you don't get enough sun, you can always take vegetarian vitamin D tablets.


As for Vitamin B 12

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin-B.aspx

Riboflavin (vitamin B2)
Riboflavin is also known as vitamin B2. ...
Good sources of riboflavin
Good sources of riboflavin include:
milk
eggs
fortified breakfast cereals
rice
Rice is vegetarian food -YES OR NO?
This is an example of a lie your link says for it said: “5 Brain Nutrients Found Only in Meat, Fish and Eggs (NOT Plants)”
so rice isn't a plant? 😛 It tells LIES!


Do you dispute these above scientific FACT? YES OR NO?

Therefore, most on that list are NOT essential diet nutrients. As for the few that are, vegetarians like my self have no deficiency of them because we choose to eat a nutritionally balanced diet. Thus meat (and eggs etc although I have nothing against eating non-meats ) provides absolutely NO essential vitamins or nutrients that a vegetarian cannot get enough of. If you refute this scientific FACT, I challenge you to give just ONE example of such a nutrient so I can quickly debunk that claim!

Originally posted by Eladar
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110202082307.htm

[b]Duo Li notes in the review that meat eaters are known for having a significantly higher combination of cardiovascular risk factors than vegetarians. Lower-risk vegans, however, may not be immune. Their diets tend to be lacking several key nutrients -- including iron, zinc, vitamin B12, and om ...[text shortened]... ou are an extremist and take meat out of your diet completely, you are putting yourself at risk.

I am saying that if you are an extremist and take meat out of your diet completely, you are putting yourself at risk.

How so? You are talking total crap. What BARRIER is stopping someone NOT ever eating meat and having a balanced diet that does NOT put them “at risk”?
And, given the fact that much of humanity is, either by choice or by no choice, vegetarian, and given the fact there are good ecological reasons to not eat meat and meat is NOT essential for good health, in what way would cutting out all meat make someone an “extremest”? -please explain....