What's the Scientific Explation of Pain?

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
So sorry to hear that. Is there a pain mgt clinic near you? I hope the issue gets resolved.

Yep, she is on the second one now and not satisfied. Going to try # 3 today. The first two were not helping her. They would not listen to her, they think they know way more about her bodies' response to pain meds than she does. For instance, she was in the ER 6 hours yesterday in agony and they finally came in and gave her 1 mg of dilotid (SP?) which did nothing, then they actually came back and gave her another 1 mg of the same stuff with did nothing to calm the muscle spasms, then tried 2 mg of valium IV and that did nothing, then 3 more Mg of valium IV which also did nothing and they sent her on her way with the same pain level as when she got there 6 hours earlier. She also threw up pure bile on the way home, a lot of it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Yep, she is on the second one now and not satisfied. Going to try # 3 today. The first two were not helping her. They would not listen to her, they think they know way more about her bodies' response to pain meds than she does. For instance, she was in the ER 6 hours yesterday in agony and they finally came in and gave her 1 mg of dilotid (SP?) which did no ...[text shortened]... s when she got there 6 hours earlier. She also threw up pure bile on the way home, a lot of it.

They did nothing to help her but I bet they bill it all!!!

Originally posted by sonhouse
Yep, she is on the second one now and not satisfied. Going to try # 3 today. The first two were not helping her. They would not listen to her, they think they know way more about her bodies' response to pain meds than she does. For instance, she was in the ER 6 hours yesterday in agony and they finally came in and gave her 1 mg of dilotid (SP?) which did no ...[text shortened]... s when she got there 6 hours earlier. She also threw up pure bile on the way home, a lot of it.

Try codeine, if it's legally available in the US, in the UK you can get cocodamol (codeine + paracetamol, paracetamol is also called acetaminophen) over the counter, it worked for me when I had a tooth abscess recently and was the most effective painkiller that I tryed then (including oxycontin, NSAIDS only, and asprin). She'll have to avoid driving etc. 'cos it does leave you woosey, but the pain removal was perfect (for 3 hours at a time).

Imagine that we got any hurt and we don't get any pain.what do you think ints good or
bad. 🙂:'(

Originally posted by pranjalko
Imagine that we got any hurt and we don't get any pain.what do you think ints good or
bad. 🙂:'(

I guess that depends. Would you often fail to learn anything as a result of not feeling pain?
Would it mean that you continue to make or allow your body to be damaged when you could have easily avoided such damage?
-these are the reasons why we evolved to feel pain.
Of course, on the other hand, there is also the intrinsically good side of not feeling pain; unless you are a masochist.

I don't know, but would like to what the scientific explanation of morphine in poppies is. how did it get there? - its not like cannabis hitting its receptor - the poppy targets or hits by chance a receptor for a chemical already in the body. how it got into a poppy i don't know?

Originally posted by e4chris
I don't know, but would like to what the scientific explanation of morphine in poppies is. how did it get there? - its not like cannabis hitting its receptor - the poppy targets or hits by chance a receptor for a chemical already in the body. how it got into a poppy i don't know?

If you have blood in your system please, please, tell me how it got there.

-m.

Originally posted by mikelom
If you have blood in your system please, please, tell me how it got there.

-m.

exercise - no no other way 🙂 but morphine is in your blood and the plant copies it for some reason

Originally posted by e4chris
I don't know, but would like to what the scientific explanation of morphine in poppies is. how did it get there? - its not like cannabis hitting its receptor - the poppy targets or hits by chance a receptor for a chemical already in the body. how it got into a poppy i don't know?

It is extremely simple, it got there by evolution. Morphine is an alkaloid. All, or almost all, of the alkaloids are neurotoxins to insect thus it gives some protection against insect attack. Thus a mutation that produced the neurotoxin in a poppy was selected for by natural selection until all poppies had the mutation and thus the neurotoxin. Then any poppy plant that doesn't have it would have a competitive disadvantage over those that do have it and would generally be weeded out by natural selection because it would tend to be more readily attacked and damaged by insects thus, assuming it survives until reproduction at all, lowering the number of poppy seeds it produces to pass on its genes to the next generation and this means that, over many generation, it is always the poppies that have it that win out at the expense (via extinction) of those that don't.
This is an example of change being brought about via selective breeding by the environment without humans (nor any intelligent sapient) doing the selecting i.e. evolution, which is exactly the same thing.

Later, man-made selection, i.e. selective breading via humans doing the selecting, of cultivated poppies increased the concentration of the neurotoxin to well above the optimum level (there is a small biological 'cost' if the plant produces much more than what gives good protection) the plant needs to give it the partial protection against insect attack.

Originally posted by humy
It is extremely simple, it got there by evolution. Morphine is an alkaloid. All, or almost all, of the alkaloids are neurotoxins to insect thus it gives some protection against insect attack. Thus a mutation that produced the neurotoxin in a poppy was selected for by natural selection until all poppies had the mutation and thus the neurotoxin. Then any poppy pl es good protection) the plant needs to give it the partial protection against insect attack.

I find it odd that morphine - such a big complex molecule got its way into poppies without some sort of selection - i suspect with that plant people saw a few types had some potential and they bred opium poppies like mendel bred pea plants to produce the opium poppie - plants are strange they do seem to aim sometimes - god knows how, for relationships with animals which will propogate them . you even get the opposite - endocine disrupter plants that let animals they don't like eat them and turn them sterile. (i think what happens by sheer numbers plants stumble across these chemicals by chance - but once a human / animal spots there use they are propogated, opium, cannabis etc )

Going back to pain i think this is relevant - pain is a reflex that the body switches off with morphine when its no longer useful.

You get sad cases of people with chronic conditions who use pain killers a lot seem to find they are not working . with respect i think this is in the peoples heads - morphine is the perfect pain killer - and synthetically you can make even stronger versions that stick more to the receptor. I think what they suffer from is discomfort at pain - it doesn't hurt, but it hurts when they move, they are a bit down it hurts not having any energy. Cannabis for everything, or valium - but seriously that could be the drug they want. its not a great pain killer but it releaves that associated discomfort. Valium is a much better drug for relaxing people - i had it on prescription for a bit. but for 'discomfort relief' it has a draw back after 1-2 months it looses potency you just don't feel it as the receptor mechanism in your body starts to adapt - the cannabis receptor can't adapt so much as its there to recognise the plant, not hit by chance, so it never wears off, you can use cannabis for years but valium only for a few months. That just my advice but i think they do pretty much give out cannabis at will to cancer patients in the US (if they want it) and the UK must follow suit.

Originally posted by e4chris
I find it odd that morphine - such a big complex molecule got its way into poppies without some sort of selection - i suspect with that plant people saw a few types had some potential and they bred opium poppies like mendel bred pea plants to produce the opium poppie - plants are strange they do seem to aim sometimes - god knows how, for relationships with a nnabis at will to cancer patients in the US (if they want it) and the UK must follow suit.

I find it odd that morphine - such a big complex molecule got its way into poppies without some sort of selection (my emphasis)

Does that mean you believe that natural selection thus evolution exists?

Originally posted by humy

I find it odd that morphine - such a big complex molecule got its way into poppies without some sort of [b]selection (my emphasis)

Does that mean you believe that natural selection thus evolution exists?[/b]

i 'see' not 'believe' evolution

Its a simplification for me but i take the garden of eden story as fact, (call it a 10 million year process of symbiotic evolution between humans and plants if you don't like that 'fact'😉 and i believe nature has provided us with plants we almost must eat - they evolved with us, can eat but don't have to tomatoes for example for ages people thought they were poisonous, and plants we should avoid. that evolved to kill us - st johns wort / foxgloves - a very toxic plant can be very useful when the chemical happens to kill a bacteria / rogue cell in you body but they should be avoided otherwise

its a seperate subject really . but with pain relief it strikes me that if the combination of morphine (pain) and cannabis (discomfort) won't do it for you, nothing will sadly (there are also lots of alternatives, no shortage if you don't like those 2)

I'm against youthanasia arguments mainly because no matter what you have there are very effective drugs to numb pain and discomfort.

Originally posted by e4chris
i 'see' not 'believe' evolution

Its a simplification for me but i take the garden of eden story as fact, (call it a 10 million year process of symbiotic evolution between humans and plants if you don't like that 'fact'😉 and i believe nature has provided us with plants we almost must eat - they evolved with us, can eat but don't have to tomatoes for examp e no matter what you have there are very effective drugs to numb pain and discomfort.

I'm against youthanasia arguments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youthanasia
“...Youthanasia is the sixth studio album by American heavy metal band Megadeth, ...”
I didn't know they made any noteworthy arguments in particular. I assume you meant “euthanasia”.

mainly because no matter what you have there are very effective drugs to numb pain and discomfort.

Actually, there isn’t. That is because all the really good ones (i.e. those that actually work without the placebo effect -research as shown that ~90% of the effect of the milder ones is placebo and even the stronger ones often have mostly placebo effect!) only work for a short while -which is generally no good at all for most terminally ill patients. I am afraid the all the really effective ones either are addictive or have totally unacceptable side effects without a single exception. After taking the most addictive ones (which, unfortunately, are generally the most effective ones) for a while, they become totally ineffective as the patient's neurology adjusts to the chemistry of it.
I should know because I was forced to take some really powerful ones for a while when I was in agonizing pain after an op and they where fine for the first ~3 days but then their effect gradually wore-off until they became totally useless until they became just like taking water for pain (actually, worse! They were making me very ill!) and, in the end, I just stopped taking them and just had to endure the agonizing pain for a few weeks.
Many terminally ill patients have to endure terrible unbearable pain as a result of the really effective pain killers becoming less and less effective with the time they are taken including my grandmother who died screaming in total agony (from cancer) despite all the powerful painkillers she was taking. So, I am afraid if that is your thinking against euthanasia then I think you should think again about that.

Anyone that can make or discover a non-addictive truly totally effective painkiller which works even when taken long-term and without unacceptable side effects may not only become extremely rich but, much more to the point, would be doing humanity a huge favour. But, until that day comes, I am all in favour of legalizing euthanasia for the terminally ill who are in pain (with various constraints to prevent abuse of the law).

Thats what happens when you let google check your spelling!! that was not intended 🙂

Originally posted by e4chris
Thats what happens when you let google check your spelling!! that was not intended 🙂

LOL.
I once persistently misspelled "message" as "massage" in some e-mails I sent to a tutor at an open university course and, from the e-mailed she sent me back, I deduced that she thought I was trying to offer her massages -totally the wrong and wildly inappropriate message; not what I was trying to say at all.
I have been particularly careful with my spelling ever since.