1. Joined
    26 Apr '03
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    25308
    30 Sep '12 17:17
    Why do timebanks continue to tick down whilst on holiday?

    This year I have lost lots of games by the following method:

    Go overseas, after booking vacation on rhp

    Out of internet cover - no moves whilst on "vacation"
    timebank decrements to 0 whilst on vacation

    Back from vacation - move in games

    Now all timebanks in all games are on 0. Assuming they are all 3 days timeout, which is my common game preference, the first time I take more than 3 days to move on rhp, all my games are lost.

    This has happened to me a couple of times this year.


    Should the timebank still be decremented whilst on vacation or would it perhaps be better if it was frozen? - thoughts?
  2. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
    Joined
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    58897
    30 Sep '12 18:34
    Originally posted by iamatiger
    Why do timebanks continue to tick down whilst on holiday?

    This year I have lost lots of games by the following method:

    Go overseas, after booking vacation on rhp

    Out of internet cover - no moves whilst on "vacation"
    timebank decrements to 0 whilst on vacation

    Back from vacation - move in games

    Now all timebanks in all games are on 0. Assumi ...[text shortened]... be decremented whilst on vacation or would it perhaps be better if it was frozen? - thoughts?
    I don't know how often you have been on the forums during your 9 year membership, but this question has been debated lots of times.
    If timebank didn't deplete whilst on vacation it would extend game times greatly.
    In effect a 3:7 game would become a 3:43 game(7 days bank + 36 vacation days).
    The best way to avoid your problem is reduce your games when you know you are going away and only book vacation time from the day that your timebank is going to run out(on the 1st game obviously) thus saving vacation days.
    Also book extra time after your vacation finishes so you can come back and play some moves while your flag is still up.
    This won't get your timebank back, but will give you 3 days to move for the rest of the game.
  3. Joined
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    25308
    30 Sep '12 20:182 edits
    Agreed, except for "3:7 -> 3-43", as you have a game with no holiday on the left side, and a game with holiday on the right so you are not comparing like with like.

    Say a game takes 30 moves, (so a total of 60 half moves), with an average of 2 days per move.

    So a 3:7 game could take 134 days with no holiday (60 moves plus both timebanks)

    Say I player burns his holiday of 36 days, (and say that timebanks don't deplete in holidays). The game is extended to 170 days.

    However with the current rule, timebanks do deplete in holidays, so with one player taking all his holiday the game would have taken 163 days becasue the players timebank would have depleted, i.e the change to the new rule only causes an increase of 7 days in the length of any game - 4% in this case.


    Even in in a 1/7 game there is still not much increase. A normal game (60 half moves) will take about 74 days, and currently if one player goes on holiday it takes 103 days. With timebanks not depleting in holidays the game might instead take 110 days, but that is not exactly a massive increase.
  4. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
    Joined
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    01 Oct '12 14:36
    Originally posted by iamatiger
    Agreed, except for "3:7 -> 3-43", as you have a game with no holiday on the left side, and a game with holiday on the right so you are not comparing like with like.

    Say a game takes 30 moves, (so a total of 60 half moves), with an average of 2 days per move.

    So a 3:7 game could take 134 days with no holiday (60 moves plus both timebanks)

    Say I pla ...[text shortened]... in holidays the game might instead take 110 days, but that is not exactly a massive increase.
    The crux of the argument in the past has been people moving, and taking skulls whilst their vacation flag is up whilst not allowing their opponent the same terms, particularly subbed players playing against non subs who have no vacation time.
    Consider this in a 3:7 game:-
    You move on day one
    On day 5 I book a days vacation and move losing a days time bank
    You make your second move on day 5.
    I carry on the procedure until day 29 when, if you have moved immediately after me every time I have no time bank remaining.
    However, I still have another 29 days holiday to play with so I could , in theory do the same right up to day 145.
    I then have no timebank OR holidays left so I then just move as late as possible on the third day.
    Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me but there are some very funny people on this site!!
    To summarise, the timebank depletes to stop people "hiding" behind their flag.
  5. Joined
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    25308
    01 Oct '12 20:25
    Originally posted by venda
    The crux of the argument in the past has been people moving, and taking skulls whilst their vacation flag is up whilst not allowing their opponent the same terms, particularly subbed players playing against non subs who have no vacation time.
    Consider this in a 3:7 game:-
    You move on day one
    On day 5 I book a days vacation and move losing a days time bank
    ...[text shortened]... on this site!!
    To summarise, the timebank depletes to stop people "hiding" behind their flag.
    Hmm, I think I follow, but to clarify could you possibly calculate the total game length with/without timebank depleting during holidays?
  6. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    02 Oct '12 17:28
    Originally posted by iamatiger
    Hmm, I think I follow, but to clarify could you possibly calculate the total game length with/without timebank depleting during holidays?
    Once all the holidays are used up on day 145,it just becomes a normal 3:7 game and provided each player moves within the 3 days the game length is unknown
  7. Joined
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    25308
    02 Oct '12 20:452 edits
    Originally posted by venda
    Once all the holidays are used up on day 145,it just becomes a normal 3:7 game and provided each player moves within the 3 days the game length is unknown
    Assume each side has about 30 moves, a lot of games finish by then

    If you look at my profile you can see the crash in my rating from march this year. This is because I have had to be away twice for holidays and once for work reasons this year, and have had a double whammy of losing games on timeouts after going on vacation, (the first time I got back 3 days later than expected, so everyone claimed a win) and a side effect I have been chucked out of my clan.

    Therefore I cannot claim to be impartial in this matter, but it still seems wrong to me that, I went away with 7 days timebank in virtually all games, booked my holiday wrongly by only 3 days, and got timed out in every game (I had holiday to spare at the time, just no way of getting online to book some more).
  8. Joined
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    03 Oct '12 07:31
    Taking into account Venda's comments I suggest:

    Timebanks do not decrement during holidays

    In any one game, when one player is on holiday then the other person is considered on holiday in that game for the purposes of timeouts/timebanks, even if they are a non-sub, this does not use up that player's holiday quota.

    There is a minimum holiday enforced of 3 days, holidays smaller than this minimum cannot be booked
  9. SubscriberKewpie
    since 1-Feb-07
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    03 Oct '12 08:37
    Holiday should stop clock for both players, in every game in progress where the vacation flag shows. End of most of the problems, except the timebank-only games which really need to be "vacation has no effect".
  10. Joined
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    25308
    04 Oct '12 20:55
    Originally posted by Kewpie
    Holiday should stop clock for both players, in every game in progress where the vacation flag shows. End of most of the problems, except the timebank-only games which really need to be "vacation has no effect".
    Hmm, timebank only games... good point, how about if neither player could move in those....
  11. SubscriberKewpie
    since 1-Feb-07
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    05 Oct '12 00:46
    This problem occurred in the 2012 Championship, when one player on vacation kept everyone waiting for MONTHS. Timebank-only games really are a special case.
  12. Joined
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    25308
    07 Oct '12 20:40
    Ok.. so we have...

    Timebanks do not decrement during holidays, except in timebank only games where holidays do not count. (means timebanks are useful for all contingencies including "I got back 2 days after the end of my holiday booking"😉

    In any one game, when one player is on holiday then the other person is considered on holiday in that game for the purposes of timeouts/timebanks, even if they are a non-sub, this does not use up that player's holiday quota. (makes the holiday rules fairer for non-subs)

    There is a minimum holiday enforced of 3 days, holidays smaller than this minimum cannot be booked (stops annoying repeated use of very short holidays to make games much longer)
  13. SubscriberKewpie
    since 1-Feb-07
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    08 Oct '12 08:31
    I'd say that is a package that should be implemented as is. I suggest that others who agree with me give that post a thumb, to show the numbers supporting the idea.
  14. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
    Joined
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    08 Oct '12 14:38
    Originally posted by iamatiger
    Ok.. so we have...

    Timebanks do not decrement during holidays, except in timebank only games where holidays do not count. (means timebanks are useful for all contingencies including "I got back 2 days after the end of my holiday booking"😉

    In any one game, when one player is on holiday then the other person is considered on holiday in that game for th ...[text shortened]... nnot be booked (stops annoying repeated use of very short holidays to make games much longer)
    You've not covered "moving whilst your vacation flag is up":-
    If my flag is up and I move does my opponent(whose flag is NOT up but his timebank is frozen in the game) have to move as well?
  15. SubscriberKewpie
    since 1-Feb-07
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    08 Oct '12 21:03
    The game's effectively an untimed game while the clocks are stopped. So he shouldn't need to move at all while the vacation flag is showing. He'd probably want to, though, to put the onus back on the vacationer.
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